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	<title>Comments on: A Misoid Revolution</title>
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		<title>By: The 5 stages of &#8220;Anarcho&#8221;-Capitalist reaction. &#124; A Division by Zer0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78940</link>
		<dc:creator>The 5 stages of &#8220;Anarcho&#8221;-Capitalist reaction. &#124; A Division by Zer0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78940</guid>
		<description>[...] A Misoid Revolution  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Misoid Revolution  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78582</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There seems to be a lot of &quot;probably&quot; and &quot;seems&quot; around here which I do not like. The way you describe it, it certainly looks like that the Allthing had already statified and thus able to promote the wish of the minority over the rest. Whatever the Pope demanded would be impossible to achieve unless it could be enforced somehow.  
 
Looking more into this, I fail to find evidence that such a tithe played a large role or that it is something that came about peacefully or naturally. From Wikipedia: 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;When Olaf Tryggvason ascended to the crown of Norway, the effort to Christianize Iceland intensified. King Olaf sent an Icelander named Stefnir Thorgilsson back to his homeland to convert his fellow countrymen. Stefnir violently destroyed sanctuaries and images of the heathen gods -- this made him so unpopular that he was eventually declared an outlaw. After Stefnir&#039;s failure, Olaf sent a priest named Thangbrand (Old Norse: &#222;angbrandr). Thangbrand was an experienced missionary, having proselytized both in Norway and the Faroe Islands. His mission in Iceland from c. 997-999 was only partly successful. He managed to convert several prominent Icelandic chieftains, but killed two or three men in the process.[citation needed] Thangbrand returned to Norway in 999 and reported his failure to King Olaf, who immediately adopted a more aggressive stance towards the Icelanders. He refused Icelandic seafarers access to Norwegian ports and took as hostages several Icelanders then dwelling in Norway. This cut off all trade between Iceland and its main trading partner. Some of the hostages taken by King Olaf were the sons of prominent Icelandic chieftains, whom he threated to kill unless the Icelanders accepted Christianity. 
 
The Icelandic Commonwealth&#039;s limited foreign policy consisted almost entirely of maintaining good relations with Norway. The Christians in Iceland used the King&#039;s pressure to step up efforts at conversion. The two rival religions soon divided the country and threatened civil war. 
[edit] &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
it very much supports the idea that I already presented that it was the increasing power provided to those &quot;private defense companies&quot; or the kings which made such changes possible. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be a lot of &quot;probably&quot; and &quot;seems&quot; around here which I do not like. The way you describe it, it certainly looks like that the Allthing had already statified and thus able to promote the wish of the minority over the rest. Whatever the Pope demanded would be impossible to achieve unless it could be enforced somehow.  </p>
<p>Looking more into this, I fail to find evidence that such a tithe played a large role or that it is something that came about peacefully or naturally. From Wikipedia: </p>
<blockquote><p>When Olaf Tryggvason ascended to the crown of Norway, the effort to Christianize Iceland intensified. King Olaf sent an Icelander named Stefnir Thorgilsson back to his homeland to convert his fellow countrymen. Stefnir violently destroyed sanctuaries and images of the heathen gods &#8212; this made him so unpopular that he was eventually declared an outlaw. After Stefnir&#039;s failure, Olaf sent a priest named Thangbrand (Old Norse: &THORN;angbrandr). Thangbrand was an experienced missionary, having proselytized both in Norway and the Faroe Islands. His mission in Iceland from c. 997-999 was only partly successful. He managed to convert several prominent Icelandic chieftains, but killed two or three men in the process.[citation needed] Thangbrand returned to Norway in 999 and reported his failure to King Olaf, who immediately adopted a more aggressive stance towards the Icelanders. He refused Icelandic seafarers access to Norwegian ports and took as hostages several Icelanders then dwelling in Norway. This cut off all trade between Iceland and its main trading partner. Some of the hostages taken by King Olaf were the sons of prominent Icelandic chieftains, whom he threated to kill unless the Icelanders accepted Christianity. </p>
<p>The Icelandic Commonwealth&#039;s limited foreign policy consisted almost entirely of maintaining good relations with Norway. The Christians in Iceland used the King&#039;s pressure to step up efforts at conversion. The two rival religions soon divided the country and threatened civil war.<br />
[edit] </p></blockquote>
<p>it very much supports the idea that I already presented that it was the increasing power provided to those &quot;private defense companies&quot; or the kings which made such changes possible.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78581</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78581</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;300 years is not &quot;quickly&quot;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;\\ 
 
Neither did Iceland start from a situation PP and inequality. Remember, it started with Communal living and possession. The &quot;quickly&quot; was going for the case of moving &lt;b&gt;our current society&lt;/b&gt; to such a private defense system. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>300 years is not &quot;quickly&quot;.</p></blockquote>
<p>\\ </p>
<p>Neither did Iceland start from a situation PP and inequality. Remember, it started with Communal living and possession. The &quot;quickly&quot; was going for the case of moving <b>our current society</b> to such a private defense system.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78580</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78580</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, but you have to remember that even in those cases of constitutional democracy allowing the wrong person to come on top, that person was still elected on promises of democracy and populism. Hitler based his campaign on promises of &quot;socialism&quot; and outright terror. Chavez is a very populist ruler etc etc. This to me points that an undemocratic platform of the type HHH suggest would be impossible to get elected. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, but you have to remember that even in those cases of constitutional democracy allowing the wrong person to come on top, that person was still elected on promises of democracy and populism. Hitler based his campaign on promises of &quot;socialism&quot; and outright terror. Chavez is a very populist ruler etc etc. This to me points that an undemocratic platform of the type HHH suggest would be impossible to get elected.</p>
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		<title>By: Kostas Koukopoulos</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78579</link>
		<dc:creator>Kostas Koukopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78579</guid>
		<description>The tithe seemed like a good idea at the time since Iceland had already accepted Christianity as the official religion and consolidating different fees payed to churches into one single tax probably made sense to the farmers. At the same time Pope Gregory demanded that the church be given a steady income and the people of Iceland were promised seats in Heaven. The Chieftains of course also supported the issue once it was proposed that they, being church-owners, be exempt from this tax. This is where rent-seeking started to take place. In any case the allthing had the power to impose things like this. Decisions made at the allthing could not be ignored without the person becoming an outlaw, i.e. leaving the judicial collective. Of course once you left the collective you were almost certainly going to be the target of attack since you were not under the protection of the law any more. 
 
As far as we can tell the Icelanders were not coerced via force into imposing the tithe. Perhaps they were duped, but this is not the fault of their original political system. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tithe seemed like a good idea at the time since Iceland had already accepted Christianity as the official religion and consolidating different fees payed to churches into one single tax probably made sense to the farmers. At the same time Pope Gregory demanded that the church be given a steady income and the people of Iceland were promised seats in Heaven. The Chieftains of course also supported the issue once it was proposed that they, being church-owners, be exempt from this tax. This is where rent-seeking started to take place. In any case the allthing had the power to impose things like this. Decisions made at the allthing could not be ignored without the person becoming an outlaw, i.e. leaving the judicial collective. Of course once you left the collective you were almost certainly going to be the target of attack since you were not under the protection of the law any more. </p>
<p>As far as we can tell the Icelanders were not coerced via force into imposing the tithe. Perhaps they were duped, but this is not the fault of their original political system.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kostas Koukopoulos</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78578</link>
		<dc:creator>Kostas Koukopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78578</guid>
		<description>300 years is not &quot;quickly&quot;. And of course the demise of the Icelandic commonwealth is not explained by the &quot;injustice&quot; caused by private property. Of course you will disagree but perhaps then have for the moment exhausted this issue. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>300 years is not &quot;quickly&quot;. And of course the demise of the Icelandic commonwealth is not explained by the &quot;injustice&quot; caused by private property. Of course you will disagree but perhaps then have for the moment exhausted this issue.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kostas Koukopoulos</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78577</link>
		<dc:creator>Kostas Koukopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78577</guid>
		<description>ok, you must remember then that the issue is not whether abstract forms of democracy lead to this or that but specifically the practicality of an anarchocapitalist political platform winning over small real-world jurisdictions. As we have seen there &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; opportunities provided by real world political institutions for such a thing. Whether there are many or few is another matter. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok, you must remember then that the issue is not whether abstract forms of democracy lead to this or that but specifically the practicality of an anarchocapitalist political platform winning over small real-world jurisdictions. As we have seen there <em>are</em> opportunities provided by real world political institutions for such a thing. Whether there are many or few is another matter.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78576</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78576</guid>
		<description>Weird. Doesn&#039;t do it for me. Must have been a caching issue. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weird. Doesn&#039;t do it for me. Must have been a caching issue.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anon73</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78572</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon73</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 03:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78572</guid>
		<description>There seems to be some kind of problem with your blog, when I load this page it&#039;s fine but loading the front page gives some kind of php error. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be some kind of problem with your blog, when I load this page it&#039;s fine but loading the front page gives some kind of php error.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-misoid-revolution/comment-page-1#comment-78565</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2956#comment-78565</guid>
		<description>The fact that constitutional rules might be flawed to allow undemocratic practices speaks much more about the flaws of the  (undemocratic) constitutions than democracy. It speaks more about how flawed constitutional representative democracy is than about how democratic means lead to flawed decisions. 
 
In the case of Hitler I couldn&#039;t say it better than this 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;On January 30, 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany. Although the National Socialists never captured more than 37 percent of the national vote, and even though they still held a minority of cabinet posts and fewer than 50 percent of the seats in the Reichstag, Hitler and the Nazis set out to to consolidate their power. With Hitler as chancellor, that proved to be a fairly easy task. &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that constitutional rules might be flawed to allow undemocratic practices speaks much more about the flaws of the  (undemocratic) constitutions than democracy. It speaks more about how flawed constitutional representative democracy is than about how democratic means lead to flawed decisions. </p>
<p>In the case of Hitler I couldn&#039;t say it better than this </p>
<blockquote><blockquote>On January 30, 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany. Although the National Socialists never captured more than 37 percent of the national vote, and even though they still held a minority of cabinet posts and fewer than 50 percent of the seats in the Reichstag, Hitler and the Nazis set out to to consolidate their power. With Hitler as chancellor, that proved to be a fairly easy task. </p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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