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	<title>Comments on: A Right-Libertarian primer to Libertarian Socialism</title>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-94003</link>
		<dc:creator>Db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 08:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-94003</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never seen an anarcho-communist who rejects the LTV. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve never seen an anarcho-communist who rejects the LTV. </p>
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		<title>By: el (a)nticristo</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-94002</link>
		<dc:creator>el (a)nticristo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 07:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I should have said &quot;Perhaps you are not aware that a main difference between marxism, Bakuninist anarcho-colectivism &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi..&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi...&lt;/a&gt;. and mutualism on one side and on the other anarcho-communism is that the first three adhere to the LTV while us anarcho-communists from the debate between Pierre Joseph Proudhon and the early anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque&lt;/a&gt; upt to the days of Peter Kropotkin and Errico Malatesta have tended to reject the Labour Theory of Value altogether. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have said &quot;Perhaps you are not aware that a main difference between marxism, Bakuninist anarcho-colectivism <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi.." rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi</a>&#8230;. and mutualism on one side and on the other anarcho-communism is that the first three adhere to the LTV while us anarcho-communists from the debate between Pierre Joseph Proudhon and the early anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque</a> upt to the days of Peter Kropotkin and Errico Malatesta have tended to reject the Labour Theory of Value altogether. </p>
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		<title>By: el (a)nticristo</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-93704</link>
		<dc:creator>el (a)nticristo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 04:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-93704</guid>
		<description>I find this collection of articles on this subject very informative and exact on most of the issues involved. I only have one questioning that I have for you coming from an anarcho-communist position. You affirm that &quot;...the reason why socialists still support the Labour Theory of Value is because we see it as the most scientific way to describe the capitalist mode of production and because the criticisms brought against it are generally weak.&quot; Perhaps you are not aware that a main difference between marxism, Bakuninist anarcho-colectivism &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi...&lt;/a&gt; and mutualism on one side and on the other anarcho-communism is that the first two adhere to the LTV while us anarcho-communists from the debate between Pierre Joseph Proudhon and the early anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque&lt;/a&gt; upt to the days of Peter Kropotkin and Errico Malatesta. 
 
As to summarize the main arguments for this rejection I will try to summarize this as follows: 
 
*Anarcho-communists reject workers direct appropiation of the products of labour since they see that labour on itself (whether collective or individual) cannot be seen as the origin of the existence of consumption goods since one should also take into account the knowledge and the tools used for such production as well as the social context and the natural environment from which the original transformed item was extracted from (this latter point could be seen also as a green or ecologist rejection of LTV). As such, anarcho-communism sees that production should be accountable and determined by the local community in which it exists. This could be seen motivated variously by reasons such as the lack of awareness of the social impacts of private property production without communitarian or collective control such as lack of consumer control and protections involved and so it can also be argued lack of motivation on production (whether in private capitalist or collectivist worker controlled) on takin into account environmental and social impacts. This is a main point which has to do with the &quot;commune&quot; part in the word &quot;anarcho-communism&quot; and so it is the reason why Kropotkin himself as well as later anarcho-communists had important reservations with workerist anarcho-syndicalism. Kropotkin said &quot;No distinction can be drawn between the work of each man. Measuring the work by its results leads us to absurdity; dividing and measuring them by hours spent on the work also leads us to absurdity. One thing remains: put the needs above the works, and first of all recognize the right to live, and later on, to the comforts of life, for all those who take their share in production..&quot; In this sense anarcho-communist tends to focus more on the real need and the importance that this has for an individual or a collective than either market exchange value or amount of hours given by workers.  
 
For more on this check &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Alexander_Berkman__What_Is_Communist_Anarchism_.html#toc24&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Alexander...&lt;/a&gt;  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism#Economic_theory&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism#Ec...&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this collection of articles on this subject very informative and exact on most of the issues involved. I only have one questioning that I have for you coming from an anarcho-communist position. You affirm that &quot;&#8230;the reason why socialists still support the Labour Theory of Value is because we see it as the most scientific way to describe the capitalist mode of production and because the criticisms brought against it are generally weak.&quot; Perhaps you are not aware that a main difference between marxism, Bakuninist anarcho-colectivism <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchi</a>&#8230; and mutualism on one side and on the other anarcho-communism is that the first two adhere to the LTV while us anarcho-communists from the debate between Pierre Joseph Proudhon and the early anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dejacque</a> upt to the days of Peter Kropotkin and Errico Malatesta. </p>
<p>As to summarize the main arguments for this rejection I will try to summarize this as follows: </p>
<p>*Anarcho-communists reject workers direct appropiation of the products of labour since they see that labour on itself (whether collective or individual) cannot be seen as the origin of the existence of consumption goods since one should also take into account the knowledge and the tools used for such production as well as the social context and the natural environment from which the original transformed item was extracted from (this latter point could be seen also as a green or ecologist rejection of LTV). As such, anarcho-communism sees that production should be accountable and determined by the local community in which it exists. This could be seen motivated variously by reasons such as the lack of awareness of the social impacts of private property production without communitarian or collective control such as lack of consumer control and protections involved and so it can also be argued lack of motivation on production (whether in private capitalist or collectivist worker controlled) on takin into account environmental and social impacts. This is a main point which has to do with the &quot;commune&quot; part in the word &quot;anarcho-communism&quot; and so it is the reason why Kropotkin himself as well as later anarcho-communists had important reservations with workerist anarcho-syndicalism. Kropotkin said &quot;No distinction can be drawn between the work of each man. Measuring the work by its results leads us to absurdity; dividing and measuring them by hours spent on the work also leads us to absurdity. One thing remains: put the needs above the works, and first of all recognize the right to live, and later on, to the comforts of life, for all those who take their share in production..&quot; In this sense anarcho-communist tends to focus more on the real need and the importance that this has for an individual or a collective than either market exchange value or amount of hours given by workers.  </p>
<p>For more on this check <a href="http://www.theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Alexander_Berkman__What_Is_Communist_Anarchism_.html#toc24" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Alexander" rel="nofollow">http://www.theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Alexander</a>&#8230;  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism#Economic_theory" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism#Ec" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism#Ec</a>&#8230; </p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-83510</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-83510</guid>
		<description>The right to life override the right to private property. LibSocs would have little toruble accepting private property claims from people outside libsoc communities but PP is meaningless without wage-workers or tenants. And if you do have those, then we would agitate them to rise up and expropriate your &quot;property&quot;. If on the other hand, you fence a huge tract of land and call it private property, then we would respect your claim only where it&#039;s followed by use or occupation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The right to life override the right to private property. LibSocs would have little toruble accepting private property claims from people outside libsoc communities but PP is meaningless without wage-workers or tenants. And if you do have those, then we would agitate them to rise up and expropriate your &quot;property&quot;. If on the other hand, you fence a huge tract of land and call it private property, then we would respect your claim only where it&#039;s followed by use or occupation. </p>
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		<title>By: natural governance</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-83509</link>
		<dc:creator>natural governance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-83509</guid>
		<description>I understand the private vs personal property distinction: 
 
Do you appreciate the concept of communal property vs non-communal property?  If you do, then people outside the commune could have private property, and communal-anarchist or libsoc societies could live along other (or dare I say within polylegal/ polyorganized) anarchist societies.  If you don&#039;t, then does it make war/tensions innevitable? -- must you purge private property from outsiders? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the private vs personal property distinction:</p>
<p>Do you appreciate the concept of communal property vs non-communal property?  If you do, then people outside the commune could have private property, and communal-anarchist or libsoc societies could live along other (or dare I say within polylegal/ polyorganized) anarchist societies.  If you don&#039;t, then does it make war/tensions innevitable? &#8212; must you purge private property from outsiders? </p>
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		<title>By: Francois Tremblay</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-79578</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois Tremblay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-79578</guid>
		<description>BTW, thank you for the recommendation of the book No Contest. So far I really like it, although it seems somewhat like an adjunct to Mutual Aid than anything else. I will tell you what I think when I&#039;m done. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, thank you for the recommendation of the book No Contest. So far I really like it, although it seems somewhat like an adjunct to Mutual Aid than anything else. I will tell you what I think when I&#039;m done. </p>
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		<title>By: Francois Tremblay</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-79577</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois Tremblay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-79577</guid>
		<description>Another link for you about LTV: 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhbvr2gz_506v2f83dh&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhbvr2gz_506v2f83d...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
(yes, well, I *am* tooting my own horn...) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another link for you about LTV:<br />
<a href="http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhbvr2gz_506v2f83dh" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhbvr2gz_506v2f83d" rel="nofollow">http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhbvr2gz_506v2f83d</a>&#8230; </p>
<p>(yes, well, I *am* tooting my own horn&#8230;) </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-78879</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-78879</guid>
		<description>Gah again! Thanks, I was never certain about this word </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gah again! Thanks, I was never certain about this word </p>
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		<title>By: Marja</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-78877</link>
		<dc:creator>Marja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-78877</guid>
		<description>Also, Kropotkin&#039;s seminal work, not seminary work. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Kropotkin&#039;s seminal work, not seminary work. </p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/a-right-libertarian-primer-to-libertarian-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-78861</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 04:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3034#comment-78861</guid>
		<description>Because they&#039;re impossible to avoid online and I don&#039;t want to have to explain the same stuff over and over again. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because they&#39;re impossible to avoid online and I don&#39;t want to have to explain the same stuff over and over again. </p>
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