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	<title>Comments on: Does Communism need a State?</title>
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	<description>A bug in the code of the universe.</description>
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		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10537</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10537</guid>
		<description>Not really. Alonzo does his thing, I do my thing, and we stay out of each other&#039;s way. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not really. Alonzo does his thing, I do my thing, and we stay out of each other&#039;s way.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Planet of Anarchy &#187; A Division by Zer0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10527</link>
		<dc:creator>Planet of Anarchy &#187; A Division by Zer0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10527</guid>
		<description>[...] 04.01 Does Communism need a State? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 04.01 Does Communism need a State? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: friar_zero</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10525</link>
		<dc:creator>friar_zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10525</guid>
		<description>See, now I&#039;m intrigued.  Could you elaborate? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, now I&#039;m intrigued.  Could you elaborate?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10432</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10432</guid>
		<description>Well, in that sense, the withering away of the state under communism is unproblematic. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in that sense, the withering away of the state under communism is unproblematic.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10428</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10428</guid>
		<description>Well, most communists consider the state as &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; an instrument of class dominance. That is why when class division is gone, so must the state. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, most communists consider the state as <i>only</i> an instrument of class dominance. That is why when class division is gone, so must the state.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10429</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10429</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;People tend to act in their own perceived individual self-interest. &lt;/blockquote&gt;  
  
I consider that there are two types of self-interest we can talk about. Interest &lt;b&gt;of&lt;/b&gt; the self (IOS), and interest &lt;b&gt;for&lt;/b&gt; the self (IFS). The first one is axiomatically defined as anything a person does. An act I do, I do because the result of it will be of psychological benefit to me, in some way.  
  
The later type is defined as anything a person does so that he gets a tangible benefit for himself. Wether that is more money, power etc.  
  
So while all IFS persons act for their IOS, All IOS is not IFS (ie a doctor working for the poor).   
  
Greed is an interest for the self which is unequenchable. It cannot be sustained in Communism because accumulation of power is impossible and accumulation of wealth will be problematic to say the least. 
 
You are not talking about greed in your later arguments but about IOS. But other than that, I agree. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>People tend to act in their own perceived individual self-interest. </p></blockquote>
<p>I consider that there are two types of self-interest we can talk about. Interest <b>of</b> the self (IOS), and interest <b>for</b> the self (IFS). The first one is axiomatically defined as anything a person does. An act I do, I do because the result of it will be of psychological benefit to me, in some way.  </p>
<p>The later type is defined as anything a person does so that he gets a tangible benefit for himself. Wether that is more money, power etc.  </p>
<p>So while all IFS persons act for their IOS, All IOS is not IFS (ie a doctor working for the poor).   </p>
<p>Greed is an interest for the self which is unequenchable. It cannot be sustained in Communism because accumulation of power is impossible and accumulation of wealth will be problematic to say the least. </p>
<p>You are not talking about greed in your later arguments but about IOS. But other than that, I agree.</p>
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		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10440</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10440</guid>
		<description>Keep in mind that I&#039;m not Alonzo Fyfe&#039;s biggest fan. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind that I&#039;m not Alonzo Fyfe&#039;s biggest fan.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10436</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10436</guid>
		<description>SInce you brought up the Atheist Ethicist, you&#039;ll be glad to know that he&#039;s the one that &lt;a href=&quot;http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2006/05/rational-self-interest.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;better articulated this distinction&lt;/a&gt;. Also related to what you say is what he has to say &lt;a href=&quot;http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-is-self-interest.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;about self-interest&lt;/a&gt;. 
 
I&#039;ll reply more later </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SInce you brought up the Atheist Ethicist, you&#039;ll be glad to know that he&#039;s the one that <a href="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2006/05/rational-self-interest.html" target="_blank">better articulated this distinction</a>. Also related to what you say is what he has to say <a href="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-is-self-interest.html" target="_blank">about self-interest</a>. </p>
<p>I&#039;ll reply more later</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10433</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10433</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure the distinction between IOS and IFS makes sense. &lt;i&gt;All&lt;/i&gt; acts fulfill &lt;i&gt;emotional&lt;/i&gt; desires: we eat food because we &lt;i&gt;feel&lt;/i&gt; hungry, not because we physically need food (although we obviously evolved the emotional need to satisfy the physical need). Or as Alonzo Fyfe puts it, the gazelle flees the lion not because it doesn&#039;t want to get eaten but because it fears the lion.  
 
I&#039;m not sure there&#039;s a distinction between &quot;tangible&quot; and &quot;intangible&quot; benefits except to in that the fulfillment of a desire might have more or less connection to the physical world: some desires can be fulfilled just by thinking, others just by speaking and listening, others, such as the desire to quickly move between Oakland and San Francisco, might require massive effort by thousands of people to fulfill.  
  
I think a better way to distinguish desires is by their &lt;i&gt;social&lt;/i&gt; implication: some desires are mutually fulfillable: satisfying my desire also satisfies another&#039;s desire; other desires are exploitative: satisfying my desire entails another person&#039;s desires will go unsatisfied.  
  
It&#039;s possible that given enough time, people will simply evolve not to have exploitative desires. But... for this to happen, there will have to be real social selection pressures. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m not sure the distinction between IOS and IFS makes sense. <i>All</i> acts fulfill <i>emotional</i> desires: we eat food because we <i>feel</i> hungry, not because we physically need food (although we obviously evolved the emotional need to satisfy the physical need). Or as Alonzo Fyfe puts it, the gazelle flees the lion not because it doesn&#39;t want to get eaten but because it fears the lion.  </p>
<p>I&#39;m not sure there&#39;s a distinction between &quot;tangible&quot; and &quot;intangible&quot; benefits except to in that the fulfillment of a desire might have more or less connection to the physical world: some desires can be fulfilled just by thinking, others just by speaking and listening, others, such as the desire to quickly move between Oakland and San Francisco, might require massive effort by thousands of people to fulfill.  </p>
<p>I think a better way to distinguish desires is by their <i>social</i> implication: some desires are mutually fulfillable: satisfying my desire also satisfies another&#39;s desire; other desires are exploitative: satisfying my desire entails another person&#39;s desires will go unsatisfied.  </p>
<p>It&#39;s possible that given enough time, people will simply evolve not to have exploitative desires. But&#8230; for this to happen, there will have to be real social selection pressures.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/does-communism-need-a-state/comment-page-1#comment-10387</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 02:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=2108#comment-10387</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not clear precisely what you mean by &quot;Greed&quot; when you say, &quot;[greed] is impossible to retain under Communism.&quot; People tend to act in their own perceived individual self-interest. Even if people are rational, having good epistemically supported understanding of objective reality, they will act according to their rational self-interest. I want communism because it&#039;s in &lt;i&gt;my own&lt;/i&gt; self-interest, and its in the self-interest of everyone who cannot claw their way into the top 7-10%, the bourgeoisie. 
 
The problem is not that people are &quot;greedy&quot; in the sense of acting in their own self-interest; the problem is that capitalism &lt;i&gt;institutionalizes&lt;/i&gt; the value of acting in one&#039;s own immediate, material self-interest, and institutionalizes the negative value of acting with regard to mutual self-interest. 
 
My argument is not that federated decision-making cannot &lt;i&gt;determine&lt;/i&gt; their mutual self-interest. My argument is that in Prisoner&#039;s Dilemma situations, two or more parties must &lt;i&gt;coercively bind themselves&lt;/i&gt; to acting in their mutual self-interest to escape the &quot;rational&quot; Nash Equilibrium of mutual defection. The problem is not primarily about information, but about motivation. 
 
The only penalty that federated agents can impose on each other is their own defection, the &quot;Tit-for-Tat&quot; solution to the iterated Prisoner&#039;s Dilemma. But when the lag between one player&#039;s defection and the retaliation exceeds the agents&#039; lifetime, then it&#039;s difficult to see how this solution could be operative. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#039;s not clear precisely what you mean by &quot;Greed&quot; when you say, &quot;[greed] is impossible to retain under Communism.&quot; People tend to act in their own perceived individual self-interest. Even if people are rational, having good epistemically supported understanding of objective reality, they will act according to their rational self-interest. I want communism because it&#039;s in <i>my own</i> self-interest, and its in the self-interest of everyone who cannot claw their way into the top 7-10%, the bourgeoisie. </p>
<p>The problem is not that people are &quot;greedy&quot; in the sense of acting in their own self-interest; the problem is that capitalism <i>institutionalizes</i> the value of acting in one&#039;s own immediate, material self-interest, and institutionalizes the negative value of acting with regard to mutual self-interest. </p>
<p>My argument is not that federated decision-making cannot <i>determine</i> their mutual self-interest. My argument is that in Prisoner&#039;s Dilemma situations, two or more parties must <i>coercively bind themselves</i> to acting in their mutual self-interest to escape the &quot;rational&quot; Nash Equilibrium of mutual defection. The problem is not primarily about information, but about motivation. </p>
<p>The only penalty that federated agents can impose on each other is their own defection, the &quot;Tit-for-Tat&quot; solution to the iterated Prisoner&#039;s Dilemma. But when the lag between one player&#039;s defection and the retaliation exceeds the agents&#039; lifetime, then it&#039;s difficult to see how this solution could be operative.</p>
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