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	<title>Comments on: The perpetual confusion about &#8220;Property&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Homesteading Should Not Be Treated as the Basis of Libertarian Ethics &#124; Libertarian Minds</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-82402</link>
		<dc:creator>Homesteading Should Not Be Treated as the Basis of Libertarian Ethics &#124; Libertarian Minds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-82402</guid>
		<description>[...] my last post, I was criticized for not offering my own position on what property rights should entail. Well then I’ll answer: I don’t know. I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my last post, I was criticized for not offering my own position on what property rights should entail. Well then I’ll answer: I don’t know. I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The confusion between property and possession&#8230; &#171; Check Your Premises</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-81220</link>
		<dc:creator>The confusion between property and possession&#8230; &#171; Check Your Premises</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 00:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-81220</guid>
		<description>[...] of property theory under the pretense that we have no choice but to have property rights. Db0 discusses this unfortunate tendancy.  You see, it does not really matter what we call the various systems of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of property theory under the pretense that we have no choice but to have property rights. Db0 discusses this unfortunate tendancy.  You see, it does not really matter what we call the various systems of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79956</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 07:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You&#039;re equivocating between the use of &quot;sticky&quot; so as to denote someone being able to own something regardless of occupancy and use and &quot;sticky&quot; denoting an ownership claim (regardless of the system) which is currently in dispute. When I oppose sticky property (i.e. private property) I oppose the first definition and all the bad stuff that follow from it. The second one is irrelevant as it simply has to do with the way we talk about ownership disputes. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#039;re equivocating between the use of &quot;sticky&quot; so as to denote someone being able to own something regardless of occupancy and use and &quot;sticky&quot; denoting an ownership claim (regardless of the system) which is currently in dispute. When I oppose sticky property (i.e. private property) I oppose the first definition and all the bad stuff that follow from it. The second one is irrelevant as it simply has to do with the way we talk about ownership disputes.</p>
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		<title>By: Praxis1452</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79948</link>
		<dc:creator>Praxis1452</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79948</guid>
		<description>Okay I&#039;ll explain again. You are stating that there are two types, property and possession.  
 
Property implies a legal framework surrounding some object such that you are able to &quot;own&quot; it, without actually using it.  
 
Possession exists without an obvious legal framework, as its ownership is obvious, and the principle benefit of this distinction is that Possession disallows for the accumulation of wealth.  
 
Now, some people may not recognize your claim regarding possessive property just as you might not recognize a claim regarding sticky property. Now, if possessive property is under dispute, it becomes sticky. This is to say if, you are driven off the land you are using, you still claim it, no? If you do still claim that it was a violation of possessive rights, then possessive rights is the legal framework of your sticky property. This then means that all property is sticky, but some legal frameworks are built around a system of physical possession(your definition), and others not (sticky property, that most modern legal systems recognize).  
 
Whether or not this is a violation of possessive rights is a non-issue. Of course, both sides would challenge the ownership claim of the other side. But, the fact remains, one side has the property, whether through violence or other means, and the other does not. If you claim property that you do not possess, it enters the realm of sticky property.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay I&#039;ll explain again. You are stating that there are two types, property and possession.  </p>
<p>Property implies a legal framework surrounding some object such that you are able to &quot;own&quot; it, without actually using it.  </p>
<p>Possession exists without an obvious legal framework, as its ownership is obvious, and the principle benefit of this distinction is that Possession disallows for the accumulation of wealth.  </p>
<p>Now, some people may not recognize your claim regarding possessive property just as you might not recognize a claim regarding sticky property. Now, if possessive property is under dispute, it becomes sticky. This is to say if, you are driven off the land you are using, you still claim it, no? If you do still claim that it was a violation of possessive rights, then possessive rights is the legal framework of your sticky property. This then means that all property is sticky, but some legal frameworks are built around a system of physical possession(your definition), and others not (sticky property, that most modern legal systems recognize).  </p>
<p>Whether or not this is a violation of possessive rights is a non-issue. Of course, both sides would challenge the ownership claim of the other side. But, the fact remains, one side has the property, whether through violence or other means, and the other does not. If you claim property that you do not possess, it enters the realm of sticky property.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79939</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79939</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;A commune that must defend itself against some foreign entity, is absolutely defending property, but that property is sticky. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
No. A sticky property simply explains that an ownership claim &quot;sticks&quot; to the current claimant, regardless of his occupancy or use of the item. A commune defending some land or capital it is currently occupying or using, is not claiming sticky property but rather a possessive claim. The owner is still not defined by violence for any external party. Anyone violently forcing the commune out of the possessive claims would rightly have their ownership claim challenged as it was based on a violation of possessive rights. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>A commune that must defend itself against some foreign entity, is absolutely defending property, but that property is sticky. </p></blockquote>
<p>No. A sticky property simply explains that an ownership claim &quot;sticks&quot; to the current claimant, regardless of his occupancy or use of the item. A commune defending some land or capital it is currently occupying or using, is not claiming sticky property but rather a possessive claim. The owner is still not defined by violence for any external party. Anyone violently forcing the commune out of the possessive claims would rightly have their ownership claim challenged as it was based on a violation of possessive rights.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79938</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79938</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If a claim is made against your ability to possess a toothbrush, it is whoever has the power that determines who is the owner. This is to say that this becomes sticky property the instant it becomes challenged.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
Not really. A possession simply signifies a claim of ownership that is grounded on occupancy or use. What comprises occupancy or use and the time limits that are set before something is considered to be abandoned are set by social norms in society. For example, nobody in their right mind would consider a personal possession like a toothbrush to have been abandoned if it&#039;s in your house and not currently being used. 
 
As such, this argument is a strawman of possession. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If a claim is made against your ability to possess a toothbrush, it is whoever has the power that determines who is the owner. This is to say that this becomes sticky property the instant it becomes challenged.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not really. A possession simply signifies a claim of ownership that is grounded on occupancy or use. What comprises occupancy or use and the time limits that are set before something is considered to be abandoned are set by social norms in society. For example, nobody in their right mind would consider a personal possession like a toothbrush to have been abandoned if it&#039;s in your house and not currently being used. </p>
<p>As such, this argument is a strawman of possession.</p>
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		<title>By: Praxis1452</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79936</link>
		<dc:creator>Praxis1452</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 03:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79936</guid>
		<description>What is the difference between possession and sticky property when it comes under dispute? I view most things by examining the power dynamic, which is to say, who has the power? If a claim is made against your ability to possess a toothbrush, it is whoever has the power that determines who is the owner. This is to say that this becomes sticky property the instant it becomes challenged. Even outside a specific legal framework, something becomes sticky once a dispute must be resolved. There is some system, whether it is mere violence to determine who owns this piece of sticky property, or a legal framework. A commune that must defend itself against some foreign entity, is absolutely defending property, but that property is sticky. The owner is determined by (in this case) the method of violence. Possession, on the other hand, without any type of stickiness for lack of a better word, only exists without any other claimants.  
 
I&#039;m wondering why you consider this to be wrong.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the difference between possession and sticky property when it comes under dispute? I view most things by examining the power dynamic, which is to say, who has the power? If a claim is made against your ability to possess a toothbrush, it is whoever has the power that determines who is the owner. This is to say that this becomes sticky property the instant it becomes challenged. Even outside a specific legal framework, something becomes sticky once a dispute must be resolved. There is some system, whether it is mere violence to determine who owns this piece of sticky property, or a legal framework. A commune that must defend itself against some foreign entity, is absolutely defending property, but that property is sticky. The owner is determined by (in this case) the method of violence. Possession, on the other hand, without any type of stickiness for lack of a better word, only exists without any other claimants.  </p>
<p>I&#039;m wondering why you consider this to be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79871</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79871</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s likely that those systems can co-exist in different geographic areas but cannot realistically intermix as the existence of socialism depends on the absence of capitalism (i.e. wage labour, rent and usury). Even on different areas, it&#039;s likely that the existence of socialists will destabilize the capitalist areas by their constant agitation for takeovers and worker&#039;s control. This is the primary reason why so called &quot;liberal&quot; nations went apeshit whenever a true libertarian socialist revolution occurred anywhere else in the world and did anything possible to destroy or corrupt it. From funding dictators to sending assassins. to outright imperialism </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#039;s likely that those systems can co-exist in different geographic areas but cannot realistically intermix as the existence of socialism depends on the absence of capitalism (i.e. wage labour, rent and usury). Even on different areas, it&#039;s likely that the existence of socialists will destabilize the capitalist areas by their constant agitation for takeovers and worker&#039;s control. This is the primary reason why so called &quot;liberal&quot; nations went apeshit whenever a true libertarian socialist revolution occurred anywhere else in the world and did anything possible to destroy or corrupt it. From funding dictators to sending assassins. to outright imperialism</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79870</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79870</guid>
		<description>First of all, this post is not all about you, it&#039;s about anyone who makes this kind of definitional argument which is far more common than you&#039;d expect. 
 
As far as you&#039;re concerned, I did not imply that you&#039;re an AnCap but merely a propertarian (i.e. you are willing to accept a stateless society with private property and by extension wage-slavery and rent) and that you did a specific strawman when you were positing what &quot;Communists fail to realize&quot;. The &lt;i&gt;whole point&lt;/i&gt; is that you do not understand how the tension of property &lt;b&gt;is&lt;/b&gt; warranted because you stick to your own definitions rather than understanding what socialists mean by the word. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, this post is not all about you, it&#039;s about anyone who makes this kind of definitional argument which is far more common than you&#039;d expect. </p>
<p>As far as you&#039;re concerned, I did not imply that you&#039;re an AnCap but merely a propertarian (i.e. you are willing to accept a stateless society with private property and by extension wage-slavery and rent) and that you did a specific strawman when you were positing what &quot;Communists fail to realize&quot;. The <i>whole point</i> is that you do not understand how the tension of property <b>is</b> warranted because you stick to your own definitions rather than understanding what socialists mean by the word.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon73</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-perpetual-confusion-about-property/comment-page-1#comment-79869</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon73</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3247#comment-79869</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the ancaps really mean that they&#039;ll tolerate communism as long as it is in a &quot;broader propertarian framework&quot;.  It may not be likely to happen, but there&#039;s no contradiction in imagining ancaps, ancocs, libcoms, and other groups living in a certain area and not being constantly at war.  Of course a war would probably happen if one of these systems broke down. :( </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the ancaps really mean that they&#039;ll tolerate communism as long as it is in a &quot;broader propertarian framework&quot;.  It may not be likely to happen, but there&#039;s no contradiction in imagining ancaps, ancocs, libcoms, and other groups living in a certain area and not being constantly at war.  Of course a war would probably happen if one of these systems broke down. <img src='http://dbzer0.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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