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	<title>Comments on: The Propertarian Double Standard</title>
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		<title>By: littlehorn</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-83989</link>
		<dc:creator>littlehorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 10:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-83989</guid>
		<description>Hey. Hope you had a nice wedding. Self-ownership is another word for the inalienable liberty of each individual. Simply because matter is alienable, and ownership over matter always involves a subject and an object, it does not follow that it must be so in the case of individuals, and self-ownership would thus be impossible. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey. Hope you had a nice wedding. Self-ownership is another word for the inalienable liberty of each individual. Simply because matter is alienable, and ownership over matter always involves a subject and an object, it does not follow that it must be so in the case of individuals, and self-ownership would thus be impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-80032</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-80032</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have anything to disagree with what you say. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#039;t have anything to disagree with what you say.</p>
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		<title>By: littlehorn</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-80031</link>
		<dc:creator>littlehorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-80031</guid>
		<description>Hi again. 
 
I don&#039;t see that self-ownership leads to private property. Roderick Long, in order to make that conclusion, &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;inserts&lt;/a&gt; the things once used into the boundaries of the self (...&quot;by transforming external objects so as to incorporate them into my ongoing projects, I make them an extension 
of myself, in a manner analogous to the way that food becomes part of my body through digestion&quot;...), but that is not necessarily true of anything that a person has once had a use for. How then, do you assess that a building is an extension of someone&#039;s self ? No evidence can be given of such a link. A past user, then, stands in the same relation to an empty as, say, a homeless person. Since no evidence of there being an extension can be given, the argument is purely philosophical and would have no use in court. Therefore there is no automatic conclusion, and a decision must be made by the community as to whether past use gives an automatic title or not. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again. </p>
<p>I don&#039;t see that self-ownership leads to private property. Roderick Long, in order to make that conclusion, <a href="" target="_blank">inserts</a> the things once used into the boundaries of the self (&#8230;&quot;by transforming external objects so as to incorporate them into my ongoing projects, I make them an extension<br />
of myself, in a manner analogous to the way that food becomes part of my body through digestion&quot;&#8230;), but that is not necessarily true of anything that a person has once had a use for. How then, do you assess that a building is an extension of someone&#039;s self ? No evidence can be given of such a link. A past user, then, stands in the same relation to an empty as, say, a homeless person. Since no evidence of there being an extension can be given, the argument is purely philosophical and would have no use in court. Therefore there is no automatic conclusion, and a decision must be made by the community as to whether past use gives an automatic title or not.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79814</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79814</guid>
		<description>An &quot;right&quot; is a normative proposition. Perhaps you&#039;re talking about descriptive facts, such as the fact that one cannot hand over control of his body to someone else like a puppet. This is not an inalienable right because it cannot be &quot;disrespected&quot;, it is always true. To claim that this is a &quot;inalienable right&quot; is as silly as saying that the law of gravity is an inalienable right of things and should always be respected. We really have no choice in the matter. 
 
What you&#039;re doing then is confusing it with the normative proposition of whether one&#039;s actions should never be dictated by someone else. But you fist need to explain why this must be so. You can&#039;t just simply assert it and point to some imaginary Natural Law in lieu of argument. 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Which other conclusions ? &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
The validity of Private Property for one. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An &quot;right&quot; is a normative proposition. Perhaps you&#039;re talking about descriptive facts, such as the fact that one cannot hand over control of his body to someone else like a puppet. This is not an inalienable right because it cannot be &quot;disrespected&quot;, it is always true. To claim that this is a &quot;inalienable right&quot; is as silly as saying that the law of gravity is an inalienable right of things and should always be respected. We really have no choice in the matter. </p>
<p>What you&#039;re doing then is confusing it with the normative proposition of whether one&#039;s actions should never be dictated by someone else. But you fist need to explain why this must be so. You can&#039;t just simply assert it and point to some imaginary Natural Law in lieu of argument. </p>
<blockquote><p>Which other conclusions ? </p></blockquote>
<p>The validity of Private Property for one.</p>
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		<title>By: littlehorn</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79813</link>
		<dc:creator>littlehorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79813</guid>
		<description>Which other conclusions ? 
 
As for the normative idea implying that one should not hand over control but could, I don&#039;t think this is correct. I think of self-ownership as an inalienable right, which precludes the possibility of handing over control of your body. And an inalienable right is by necessity a normative right, in the sense that it should always be respected everywhere around the world, regardless of the legislations. But you know all that already. Don&#039;t really know what to make of that description of a normative idea...  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which other conclusions ? </p>
<p>As for the normative idea implying that one should not hand over control but could, I don&#039;t think this is correct. I think of self-ownership as an inalienable right, which precludes the possibility of handing over control of your body. And an inalienable right is by necessity a normative right, in the sense that it should always be respected everywhere around the world, regardless of the legislations. But you know all that already. Don&#039;t really know what to make of that description of a normative idea&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79812</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79812</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So, I would say the requirement for the legality of any ownership system, under natural law, is its voluntary basis, ie anarchy.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
&lt;a href=&quot;http:\/\/anarchism.pageabode.com\/afaq\/secA2.html#seca214&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;Voluntarism is not enough&lt;/a&gt; for Anarchy and even if it were, your Natural law does not really tell us much since the difference between systems based on Propertarian and Possessive ownership is immense. 
 
As such, the way you present Natural Law, you might as well be saying &quot;I think&quot; instead of &quot;Natural law says&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, I would say the requirement for the legality of any ownership system, under natural law, is its voluntary basis, ie anarchy.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http:\/\/anarchism.pageabode.com\/afaq\/secA2.html#seca214" target="_blank">Voluntarism is not enough</a> for Anarchy and even if it were, your Natural law does not really tell us much since the difference between systems based on Propertarian and Possessive ownership is immense. </p>
<p>As such, the way you present Natural Law, you might as well be saying &quot;I think&quot; instead of &quot;Natural law says&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79811</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79811</guid>
		<description>When you say that &quot;you&quot; own &quot;yourself&quot; you imply two separate entities. One that is doing the owning, and one that is being owned.  This is how the concept of ownership works. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you say that &quot;you&quot; own &quot;yourself&quot; you imply two separate entities. One that is doing the owning, and one that is being owned.  This is how the concept of ownership works.</p>
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		<title>By: littlehorn</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79810</link>
		<dc:creator>littlehorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79810</guid>
		<description>Did I separate myself in two entities ? I thought I was quite clear about rejecting dualism. I obviously do not believe that self-ownership splits people in two. Now why would I believe that? I have no idea. It just doesn&#039;t occur to me that a separation occurs because of self-ownership. Maybe you can give me reasons to the contrary (other than grammatical). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did I separate myself in two entities ? I thought I was quite clear about rejecting dualism. I obviously do not believe that self-ownership splits people in two. Now why would I believe that? I have no idea. It just doesn&#039;t occur to me that a separation occurs because of self-ownership. Maybe you can give me reasons to the contrary (other than grammatical).</p>
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		<title>By: littlehorn</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79809</link>
		<dc:creator>littlehorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79809</guid>
		<description>Some natural law theorists talk about cases where natural law is mute, yet requires that some decision be made, implyinh that the decision is up to us. Roderick Long and Charles Johnson use the example of the side of the road people are driving on. Natural Law might require that you drive on one side (so as not to crash and kill others) yet it doesn&#039;t really matter which particular side. (Please note that I said &#039;might&#039;, I don&#039;t particularly like this illustration, as it is perfectly possible to drive on the other side of the road without necessarily killing someone. It&#039;s extremely dangerous, but it&#039;s not automatically illegal. Nevertheless it does fill its role.)  
 
Similarly, natural law might require that men organize systems of ownership-- so as to avoid conflict, without saying which particular one. In fact, I think the avoidance of conflict comes about, not because one system of ownership is better than all the other supposedly evil-confused ones, but because it has been ratified by the consensus of all involved, which is what is implied by the use of the word organize, as you must know.  
 
So, I would say the requirement for the legality of any ownership system, under natural law, is its voluntary basis, ie anarchy. And this is why it is not idiotic for anarcho-capitalists to say that the common enemy is the state. I looked at some other articles of yours, and although it&#039;s a lot of fun reading them, I find your rants completely patronizing and disturbing, in a way that someone who would hold property is &quot;right&quot; (as opposed to other systems) would be patronizing and talking out of his ass. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some natural law theorists talk about cases where natural law is mute, yet requires that some decision be made, implyinh that the decision is up to us. Roderick Long and Charles Johnson use the example of the side of the road people are driving on. Natural Law might require that you drive on one side (so as not to crash and kill others) yet it doesn&#039;t really matter which particular side. (Please note that I said &#039;might&#039;, I don&#039;t particularly like this illustration, as it is perfectly possible to drive on the other side of the road without necessarily killing someone. It&#039;s extremely dangerous, but it&#039;s not automatically illegal. Nevertheless it does fill its role.)  </p>
<p>Similarly, natural law might require that men organize systems of ownership&#8211; so as to avoid conflict, without saying which particular one. In fact, I think the avoidance of conflict comes about, not because one system of ownership is better than all the other supposedly evil-confused ones, but because it has been ratified by the consensus of all involved, which is what is implied by the use of the word organize, as you must know.  </p>
<p>So, I would say the requirement for the legality of any ownership system, under natural law, is its voluntary basis, ie anarchy. And this is why it is not idiotic for anarcho-capitalists to say that the common enemy is the state. I looked at some other articles of yours, and although it&#039;s a lot of fun reading them, I find your rants completely patronizing and disturbing, in a way that someone who would hold property is &quot;right&quot; (as opposed to other systems) would be patronizing and talking out of his ass.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://dbzer0.com/blog/the-propertarian-double-standard/comment-page-1#comment-79805</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 05:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dbzer0.com/?p=3090#comment-79805</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;but it still is true that I am totally free to do anything I want with myself, and any other position is tyrannical. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
You confuse self-ownership is a decriptive idea and self-ownership as a normative idea. The former says that one cannot hand over control of his body to someone else (barring sci-fi mind control schemes) and the later says that one &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; not hand over control of his body to someone else, implying that it is possible. Of course, in reality the later is simply talking about slavery situations but is using this terminology in order to jump to other conclusions. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>but it still is true that I am totally free to do anything I want with myself, and any other position is tyrannical. </p></blockquote>
<p>You confuse self-ownership is a decriptive idea and self-ownership as a normative idea. The former says that one cannot hand over control of his body to someone else (barring sci-fi mind control schemes) and the later says that one <i>should</i> not hand over control of his body to someone else, implying that it is possible. Of course, in reality the later is simply talking about slavery situations but is using this terminology in order to jump to other conclusions.</p>
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