Comments on: Why Socialists must learn from the Free Software movement http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement A bug in the code of the universe. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:12:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83668 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:07:58 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83668 Have fun begging the ruling elite to voluntarily give away their power now... Have fun begging the ruling elite to voluntarily give away their power now…

]]> By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83667 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:05:20 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83667 <blockquote>Also, wasn't the entire point of the above post showing how the use of contract and property rights could be used as means to create libertarian socialist pockets within a capitalist society? </blockquote> To an extent, and only because we cannot avoid contracts and property rights, anymore than Free Software can avoid copyrights. Naturally it would be far better to make away with contracts and Private Property altogether. So this solution is simply using the tools of the system to destabilize it until we destroy those tools

Also, wasn't the entire point of the above post showing how the use of contract and property rights could be used as means to create libertarian socialist pockets within a capitalist society?

To an extent, and only because we cannot avoid contracts and property rights, anymore than Free Software can avoid copyrights. Naturally it would be far better to make away with contracts and Private Property altogether. So this solution is simply using the tools of the system to destabilize it until we destroy those tools

]]> By: andrewclunn http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83666 andrewclunn Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:05:00 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83666 Here's the part where I call you a crazy anarchist and walk away. Here's the part where I call you a crazy anarchist and walk away.

]]> By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83665 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:02:31 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83665 <blockquote>Hold on. You're saying that I might be right about minarchism being more likely to lead to libertarian socialism, which is why the ruling elite will never allow it to happen, so that's why you should pursue alternate means of bringing about libertarian socialism? </blockquote> It's more likely to bring about a libertarian-socialist revolution sooner and be overcome by it easier (not sure of course) but it will in no way "lead" to LibSoc. But the effort of achieving minarchism and then waiting for a LibSoc revolution is by no means certainly faster than simply aiming for a LibSoc revolution under the current one. So naturally I would pursue the means that that is likely to bring about LibSoc, and that is convincing people that LibSoc tactics are a good idea and therefore subvert and destabilize the system through direct action until a revolution occurs.

Hold on. You're saying that I might be right about minarchism being more likely to lead to libertarian socialism, which is why the ruling elite will never allow it to happen, so that's why you should pursue alternate means of bringing about libertarian socialism?

It's more likely to bring about a libertarian-socialist revolution sooner and be overcome by it easier (not sure of course) but it will in no way "lead" to LibSoc. But the effort of achieving minarchism and then waiting for a LibSoc revolution is by no means certainly faster than simply aiming for a LibSoc revolution under the current one.

So naturally I would pursue the means that that is likely to bring about LibSoc, and that is convincing people that LibSoc tactics are a good idea and therefore subvert and destabilize the system through direct action until a revolution occurs.

]]> By: andrewclunn http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83664 andrewclunn Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:55:20 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83664 Hold on. You're saying that I might be right about minarchism being more likely to lead to libertarian socialism, which is why the ruling elite will never allow it to happen, so that's why you should pursue alternate means of bringing about libertarian socialism? Am I hearing you right? Also, wasn't the entire point of the above post showing how the use of contract and property rights could be used as means to create libertarian socialist pockets within a capitalist society? Hold on. You're saying that I might be right about minarchism being more likely to lead to libertarian socialism, which is why the ruling elite will never allow it to happen, so that's why you should pursue alternate means of bringing about libertarian socialism? Am I hearing you right?

Also, wasn't the entire point of the above post showing how the use of contract and property rights could be used as means to create libertarian socialist pockets within a capitalist society?

]]> By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83663 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:49:30 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83663 <blockquote>The third is not a non-sequitur if you mean to imply that libertarian socialism must occur simultaneously in all societies to be successful, but if that is the case, then... well that would be a crushing blow for your ideology, so I assume that is not the case. </blockquote> Libertarian Socialism is international, so at the least, it does need a critical mass of land to allow for a self-sustained society to form around it (i.e. a society which does not have to rely on capitalist relations to sustain itself). And such a society, by its very existence would destabilize all capitalist nations that still remain, which is the reason why any such attempt was brutally suppressed every time it occurred.

The third is not a non-sequitur if you mean to imply that libertarian socialism must occur simultaneously in all societies to be successful, but if that is the case, then… well that would be a crushing blow for your ideology, so I assume that is not the case.

Libertarian Socialism is international, so at the least, it does need a critical mass of land to allow for a self-sustained society to form around it (i.e. a society which does not have to rely on capitalist relations to sustain itself). And such a society, by its very existence would destabilize all capitalist nations that still remain, which is the reason why any such attempt was brutally suppressed every time it occurred.

]]> By: andrewclunn http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83662 andrewclunn Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:46:17 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83662 No they are not. We are not discussing the various different means of bringing about socialism, we are discussing the method discussed in the above post. If you would like to have that discussion, it will be very short, as it was already covered in your "why we can't be friends" article. No they are not. We are not discussing the various different means of bringing about socialism, we are discussing the method discussed in the above post. If you would like to have that discussion, it will be very short, as it was already covered in your "why we can't be friends" article.

]]> By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83661 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:45:22 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83661 There is no strawman, I am pointing out what happened in the real world and why such a libertarian socialist system has not taken hold in an emergent manner. You're obviously arguing that we should first try to achieve a minarchist capitalist system and them aim for socialism, which makes no sense at all. Why should I do something antithetical to my idea society when there's a lot of indication to suggest that such a system would be just as hostile to libertarian socialism as a more statist one. In fact, I'd say that the Robber Baron Capitalism of a minarchist system might be more likely to overthrow by libertarian socialism, which is the primary reason why the ruling elite will never allow a capitalist minarchism to happen, any more than they would let an anarchist revolution build-up. Even if a minarchist capitalism were to happen, there's no reason to expect that same tactics would not be employed. There is no strawman, I am pointing out what happened in the real world and why such a libertarian socialist system has not taken hold in an emergent manner. You're obviously arguing that we should first try to achieve a minarchist capitalist system and them aim for socialism, which makes no sense at all. Why should I do something antithetical to my idea society when there's a lot of indication to suggest that such a system would be just as hostile to libertarian socialism as a more statist one. In fact, I'd say that the Robber Baron Capitalism of a minarchist system might be more likely to overthrow by libertarian socialism, which is the primary reason why the ruling elite will never allow a capitalist minarchism to happen, any more than they would let an anarchist revolution build-up.

Even if a minarchist capitalism were to happen, there's no reason to expect that same tactics would not be employed.

]]> By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83660 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:39:30 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83660 The existence of a centralized state required to enforce laws and contracts biases the system in favour of capitalism or other types of class societies. The existence of a centralized state required to enforce laws and contracts biases the system in favour of capitalism or other types of class societies.

]]> By: db0 http://dbzer0.com/blog/why-socialists-must-learn-from-the-free-software-movement/comment-page-1#comment-83659 db0 Wed, 06 Oct 2010 13:38:19 +0000 http://dbzer0.com/?p=1687#comment-83659 They're very relevant to the argument. The kind of direct action that one supports in achieving socialism decides what kind of socialism they will get, or if they will get it at all. They're very relevant to the argument. The kind of direct action that one supports in achieving socialism decides what kind of socialism they will get, or if they will get it at all.

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