Egalitarianism VS Freedom

Black and Red Star of Anarcho-Syndicalism

In my recent conversation with a…err…”political moderate”, a fundamental difference in opinions surfaced which I think is what caused most of the friction. Specifically it is the classic collision that occurs between a free market libertarian and a Libertarian Socialist.

Our conversation started with me explaining if I am a supporter of personal freedoms and very soon I was being drilled on why I support them but I don’t support the freedom of people to amass capital. Even as I was explaining that such freedom creates inequality and exploitation I was indirectly being accused of hypocrisy (which was incidentally a trigger point to take this publicly).

There was a tacit understanding by my opponent that I was somehow as supportive of (the same type of) freedom as he was and thus, by not supporting economic freedom I was being hypocritical. Indeed, thinking about the way this conversation took place I get the impression tha Oolon was attempting to make me realize this perceived dissonance in my opinion and thus abandon such views.

However what Oolon and generally libertarians do not understand is that for me (and I guess for the rest of the left-libertarian movement – feel free to correct me on this) it is not liberty (or more accurately, negative liberty) that is my highest value or priority, it is egalitarianism or positive liberty and while I do consider negative liberty as a worthy goal and will be willing to cooperate with free market libertarians to achieve it, it will definitely take the back seat when it conflicts with egalitarianism.

Libertarians love to scream “bloody oppression” when such views are expressed and this is what really gets me annoyed. I can only take so many accusations that “I am trying to force my morality on others” or that I am trying to take away freedoms when I am attempting to achieve the exact opposite: Promote the most freedom for the largest amount of people.

Thus our fundamental difference once again comes down to the classic Egalitarianism VS Freedom or Positive VS Negative Liberty and if we are to have any meaningful discussion, it is this part that we need to argue for the rest of our argument stems from it.

There is no point in expressing my opinion on one policy and have the libertarian exclaim “Aha! But you’re taking away my freedom.” I.Don’t.Care. By allowing you that freedom it would mean that inequality would once again occur and people would suffer as a result. I do not care for your repugnant beliefs that the people are not entitled to escape suffering and if you call me authoritarian one more time I will smack you.

Our freedoms need already to be curtailed in some aspects in order to have a working society. Thus, among others, you do not have the freedom to pay people below the minimum wage and you do not have the freedom to freely pollute your own property. And finally, you do not have the freedom to relinquish your own freedom.

Incidentally this is similar to the classic disagreement between the BSD Licenses and GNU GPL. The BSDs are always accusing the Free Software movement that they are not as free as them because they do not allow the freedom to take away the freedom. GPL is about providing positive freedom while BSD is about proviging negative freedom. The type of freedom that BSD espouses is what enabled Microsoft to get and then grip the market with their Active Directory implementation of LDAP & Kerberos.

It is in a similar way that negative liberty is abused, even without the initiation of force. This is what free market libertarians fail to consider. Things like monopolies, worker exploitation etc are the results and they end up hurting everyone.

On the other hand, what Egalitarianism is about, is not making all people achieve the same (which is again a misunderstanding of the concept) but allowing all people the same freedoms no matter their abilities or social standing. Egalitarianism is not about putting overachievers down, but rather in making sure that inequality is not created because of it.

For example, it is of not unfair if a person making 1M a year is taxed at 80% in order to enable people making 20K to be taxed 10%. The former is still filthy rich and the later can have a comfortable life without struggling for subsistence.

But why is egalitarianism of higher priority than freedom? Because through egalitarianism people truly have a choice in their lives. It allows people to do what they do best even if under capitalism that is not profitable. It makes people happier and it allows people to discard fear which further serves as a catalyst for discarding religion. And most importantly, it is self-sustaining.

When people learn to cooperate in this manner it is difficult for it to change. Cooperative people have already the necessary mentality to unite and oppose creeping inequality and authoritarianism. Free Market Libertarians OTOH, classically with a “Every man for himself” mentality, are doomed to play the Prisoner’s Dilemma.

So dear libertarians and political moderates, if you’re going to debate me on such issues you’re better trying to convince me why Negative liberty is superior to Egalitarianism. Anything else can only end in frustration.

114 thoughts on “Egalitarianism VS Freedom

  1. This inequality does not create coercion as in the case of accumulated wealth. If people learned to reward this inequality in other forms then it would not affect equality.

    Socialist redistribution is also coercive. Coercion in and of itself is not an argument. YOu have to show that coercion is coming from poor reasoning, unduly/unjustly limits liberty, and/or a host of other considerations. You canno use coercion by itself as an argument if you are arguing for other examples of coercion. You can make an argument that specific instances or types of coercion are preferrable to others.

    And it is exactly because of this that I think money and greed are at the root of the issue. This is why progressive taxation can restoge egalitarianism (while also improving society).

    Are you hinting at the old 'marxist bees' idea? Anyway, you can have progressive taxation and annihilate both extreme wealth and extreme poverty, which I think a good argument against their desert can be made, without destroying actual inequality or capitalism. Thats liberalism. Honestly I think you've almost convinced me of a couple of programs, but I don't see where you've really done much to attack capitalism itself. The urge to better oneself is the same urge that drives us to make more money and wear bette clothes. To hamper one will neccesarily hamper the other and we have stagnation.

    No those who work harder do not "deserve" to get unequal pay. It may be worth for society to reward people who work harder but I dispute that this a monetary reward is the best way to do so, because that creates inequality.

    The problem with this is that a monetary reward has proven to be the best way. Even Marx, despite his various erroneous problems, argues that communism is only possible when the means of production are built up to a certain extent. Communists countries, save for the increasingly capitalist parts of China, stagnate economically. In the first world publicly owned institutions are never as competitive as privately owned ones. We have seen again and again that competition always produces better results.

    Also I see no reason to deny more reward for more work. An employee that works more hours, has more education, has more skill, and better innate abilities contributes more to the production of a product or service than an average worker or a slacking worker. By contributing more to a product a person should recieve more from the sale of said product. To look at it another way is to say that the person who knits 75% of a sweater should recieve more of profits from the sale of that sweater than the person who knits 25% of said sweater.

    Nice strawman there.

    A mistype actually. Your argument, which we can address later, is that it is immoral and/or unjust for a person to be coerced into "work". I use the word "work" here to indicate an activity that produces the means to support oneself. You claim that since a person will starve if they do not work it is unjust and/or immoral coercion. The work or starve mechanic exists outside of personal coercion. We must work or starve as a matter of natural fact. Simply because person-owned business provides the best and most efficient means of work does not mean that it is the business that is coercing. You can think that JD guy over at barefoot bum for that one. I had another point but I forgot it about midway down this one.

    If you define the "free-rider problem" I will formulate a response to it.

    The free rider problem is not vague or overly subjective, you can look it up at any time on your own. The free-rider problem states that if you create someting like a guaranteed income or abolition of private property then no one has any incentive to achieve or to contribute. For example, if there is a guaranteed minimum income then you will have a large group of people who will not work and will not contribute to society, free-riders. The only way to prevent this is to either provide incentive to work through reward or provide dicentive through punihsment. An argument can be made that this is coercion, but I think that would stretch the term coercion beyond useable limits. Without reward or punishment there would be no incintive to work.

    As I agued elsewhere, and can point you to more professional studies if you would like, economics provides incentive not only for work but for innovation and achievement. No other system of competition or incentive has ever created results on the same scale.

  2. I agree that social systems do not change easily or quickly and that such a change will take generations and require a shift in our sociological thinking. I feel this fact can also be used as an argument against legislative implementation of socialism, at least for the immediately foreseeable future.

    I agree. I believe that forced socialism is bound to fail. Which is why I am not striving for that. I am striving to shift our socioeconomical thinking ๐Ÿ˜‰

  3. I was initially responding to your advocacy for socialism in a post on atheist nexus. As I said elsewhere, your views are more nuanced than your comments there.

  4. I do not care for your repugnant beliefs that the people are not entitled to escape suffering and if you call me authoritarian one more time I will smack you.

    Oh the irony.

  5. authoritarian |ษ™หŒθôriหˆte(ษ™)rฤ“ษ™n; ôหŒθär-|
    adjective
    favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, esp. that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom : the transition from an authoritarian to a democratic regime.
    • showing a lack of concern for the wishes or opinions of others; domineering; dictatorial : he had an authoritarian and at times belligerent manner.

    I do understand the definition.

  6. First: Please use html blockquotes for quoting (read the comment policy as well). They are specially formatted to stand out.

    But if people are allowed to do what they do best regardless of its ability to make profit, i.e. sustain their own existence, then what prevents them from becoming a drain on those who are supporting their own existence?

    Err, profit does not mean that it sustains it's own existence. Profit is simply the money the capitalist earns after and over he has already sustained the existence of his enterprise. Profit is what you have after you have already paid the workers and bought the raw materials for production.

  7. After all to be profitable in a capitalist system you must be providing something of value to yourself or others

    Untrue. To be profitable you need to be exploiting your workers. If your product is of value to society is irrelevant as long as if it sells. That is why a huge advertising industry exists whose sole purpose is to convince consumers to buy products of no value.

  8. I mean the word irony but anyway…

    So care to explain why I'm an authoritarian? Before you do speak, I would point out that the disregard of the wishes of others goes together with "domineering" and "dictatorial".

  9. no what you said is untrue. If I make chairs in my garage from trees in my backyard and sell them for a profit who have I exploited? That is capitalism. Guess what I do then, I take those profits and I grow more trees and I make more chairs and I higher people to help me make chairs. I have then provided my employees with a means of sustaining themselves and making a profit. I have in fact provided something of value to other people, the chair, as well as a job to my employees. Who has been exploited?

  10. no what you said is untrue. If I make chairs in my garage from trees in my backyard and sell them for a profit who have I exploited? That is capitalism. Guess what I do then, I take those profits and I grow more trees and I make more chairs and I higher people to help me make chairs. I have then provided my employees with a means of sustaining themselves and making a profit. I have in fact provided something of value to other people, the chair, as well as a job to my employees. Who has been exploited?

    So in a free market I am allowed to practice the capitalism described above or I could go a communist route and call my friends up and ask them to help me and we will split everything equally. In a perfect world things would go great and we would compete with the capitalist. In the real world however, more often than not someone would be required to make decisions for a business and disagreements would a rise, we would fracture the business and either fail or create our own separate businesses in competition with each other.

    But again, I go back to the point that Capitalism and Communism can coexist within a free-market. Your idea however would serve to limit individual freedoms in order to achieve the impossible task of defying nature, egalitarianism, as all people are not equals.

  11. In any case, even USSR, had innovation. They were the first to reach space if you remember

    What? How is that innovation? They just wanted to prove their superiority by getting to space first and at great cost. They robbed the productive members of their society to achieve it. Now the Soviet Union doesn't even exist, so much for superiority.

  12. Why would a performer bring down the system. Doesn't your street dancing bring about some joy to the hearts of the passers-by? Don't you make some people pick up dancing or dance with you? I don't see this activity as worthless as you seem to imply. As your wishes are to dance, the baker's wishes are to bake. And when you're hungry you'll go to him to get some bread to eat. Thus you are sustained.

  13. no what you said is untrue. If I make chairs in my garage from trees in my backyard and sell them for a profit who have I exploited? That is capitalism. Guess what I do then, I take those profits and I grow more trees and I make more chairs and I higher people to help me make chairs.

    Perhaps my choice of words was incorrect. Indeed profit is left after your pay your workers and pay for the raw materials. When you work alone you are not exploiting yourself as you get the whole value of your work. However if you're using this profit simply to fund the next day of work (including food for yourself and raw materials) then it's not really "profit" as you can't do anything with it other than continue next day's work.
    If however you use this profit to hire other workers to which you do not give an equal share of the day's work value and thus make more profit, then this is exploitation.

  14. In a perfect world things would go great and we would compete with the capitalist. In the real world however, more often than not someone would be required to make decisions for a business and disagreements would a rise, we would fracture the business and either fail or create our own separate businesses in competition with each other.

    This perfect world you mention only does not happen because you do not let it happen. If disagreements occur within a group, they can be resolved democratically. And even if a split does occur, it does not lead to competition as none of them is working for profit.

  15. Your idea however would serve to limit individual freedoms in order to achieve the impossible task of defying nature, egalitarianism, as all people are not equals.

    There is nothing nature defying about egalitarianism. I will comment on that pathetic article you proposed tomorrow.

  16. "Because through egalitarianism people truly have a choice in their lives. It allows people to do what they do best even if under capitalism that is not profitable. It makes people happier and it allows people to discard fear which further serves as a catalyst for discarding religion. And most importantly, it is self-sustaining."

    But if people are allowed to do what they do best regardless of its ability to make profit, i.e. sustain their own existence, then what prevents them from becoming a drain on those who are supporting their own existence? After all to be profitable in a capitalist system you must be providing something of value to yourself or others. If it makes me happy to dance in the street all day how exactly is that self sustaining?

  17. Ostracized? So if I don't fit into your society you will just boot me out? I thought your society was based on fairness and equality. It looks as though your society is already crumbling before it has begun.

    So you are telling me that societal pressure will make the baker bake? I thought he baked because he loved it not because people were pressuring or forcing him to. What if he was the only one in town that loved to bake and everyone wanted his bread. Let us say that he is capable of making 10 loaves a day but now 20 people come to enjoy his bread. He is unable to provide enough bread for everyone and they starve. Will your society pressure someone else into making bread so that people do not starve?

    In a capitalist system the need for bread would be recognized by someone as a way to make a living and they would take up baking whether they loved it or not. The truth is that life is about survival not about doing what you love.

    Could you just imagine all of the things we would not have if everyone left jobs that they did not love and only pursued activities that they loved. I work my job not because I love it but because it allows me to do the things I love. How does it do that? Because there exists a need and in order to fulfill that need someone is going to compensate me for my work. By providing them with something that they need I can now provide myself with the things that I need giving someone else the ability to do the same. That is why capitalism works. Because no matter how terrible a job is, if someone needs it to be done the money will be there to get it done.

    What if your town only has one farmer and his love is to grow flowers instead of wheat. Where would the baker get his wheat flour? In capitalism the farmer would grow wheat because there is a demand for it and he will be compensated for his efforts. Your system fails to ensure that people would be compensated not only for there work but for their ingenuity, perseverance, and determination.

    Did you ever see that friends episode where Monica makes the candy and leaves it out for her neighbors? They loved it so much that they asked for more when she ran out. She was more than happy to make it for them because it is what she loved. Eventually a mob formed at her door looking for more candy when she ran out again. The demanded that she make more (your societal pressure) but it was impossible for her to do so. In the end she stopped making the candy because the pressure was so great and the task became arduous, she no longer loved it. This is the path that your society would be headed done. It is one thing to be kind to your neighbors and share your wealth, but it is a completely different thing when total strangers are involved who are all to willing to take you for granted.

  18. Rose colored glasses? If anyone has those it is you. You believe that just because people want to do things society would work. If what people wanted to do was beneficial to society they would make a living at it.

    I never said they were lazy or incompetent, what I said was just because someone is doing something that makes them happy does not mean that the are providing benefit to anyone else. You assumed that would be the case. Thus, even if I do not provide any benefit to anyone else I would still be benefiting from them.

  19. I'm not playing the "poor Person" who sacrificed himself. What I am saying is for the chair maker had goals in his life and as a byproduct he was able to employ other people at productive activities.

    So if as a chair maker he fulfills his needs and stops making chairs where does everyone else get their chairs? He is after all one of the few that know how to make chairs.

  20. I would pay them the full value of their labor. And I would pay myself the full value of my labor, my ideas, my determination. Your vision of society completely leaves out everything other than manual labor. Not every task is equal. Should the guy at Mc Donald's who pushes the mop around the floor be paid the same as the guy who sweats all day over the grill? Should the manager, they guy that keeps everything working be paid the same? Without him it would not matter what work everyone else did because they would not make any money to keep in business.

    How do you distribute goods in your society? Lets go back to the baker. IF their is one farmer and he does grow wheat lets 20 bushels. Now each baker demands 20 bushels in order to make enough bread for the citizens. Who gets the twenty bushels? Do we let society demand that the baker who makes the best bread gets to do what he loves? I have news for you, in a capitalist society, the society does demand that, the baker who bakes the best bread gets the most customers, thus the money to pay the farmer for his wheat. Thus the baker who bakes the best stays in business and gets to do what he loves, plus if the town demands more bread and the baker more wheat then the farmer will grow more wheat because he knows that he will be compensated. Has anyone been exploited? It did not require a vote, it did not require the town to ostracizes anyone, it did not require them going to the bad baker and telling him to quit so that the good baker could continue. All it took was the people exchanging for what they wanted and the needs of the society were met.

  21. I never said they were lazy or incompetent, what I said was just because someone is doing something that makes them happy does not mean that the are providing benefit to anyone else. You assumed that would be the case. Thus, even if I do not provide any benefit to anyone else I would still be benefiting from them.

    What is beneficial for society is not what can sustain a person under Capitalism. This is again classic Libertarian circular reasoning.

    You only judge benefit to anyone else by if the make any money out of it. And anything that makes money must be providing a benefit.

    But someone this reasoning, someone who is happy by providing medical care to the impoverished is obviously not providing any benefit to society.

  22. So then, you are suggesting that I either don't hire the workers, because that would be exploitation or I hire them and give them equal stake in the business that I built. Why should they get an equal stake? I am the one who built it, designed the chairs, came up with the process, took the risk. Any money that I make over what I pay my employees is because of the prior investment that I made not because I have exploited anyone. Without me they would be doing nothing. You cannot watch someone build something from the ground up without helping them and come in afterward and declare yourself an equal just because you help them out. Doesn't everything that was sacrificed to build the business count for anything? If it doesn't then no one would build a business they would just come in an take them over exactly as you suggest they do. You have just destroyed your incentive to innovate and take risks.

  23. Ok so if I start a business and work my ass off to make it work and grow to the point of needing other people to help me, then I must make them equal partners with equal say in my business? That is not right, it is my business not theirs, and as I said before, if that is the case how on earth do you expect to get anyone to start a business.

  24. How exactly are we all equal? Some of us are stronger, smarter, taller, more intuitive… the facts are that we are all different. Different is not equal.

  25. What if no one wanted to see me dance because my dancing sucks. Bad actors don't make money in capitalism because no one wants to see them and they are not contributing any joy to anyone. Capitalism tells them, "Hey you are terrible you should do something else or you will starve." So they become a waiter. In your system it wouldn't matter if they provided any joy to anyone, in fact they could provide misery to people and they would still be getting provided for.

    So if the baker bakes all day just because he likes to and he only makes two loaves one day because he feels like going home early and 10 people come to his shop and there isn't enough bread for everyone what happens then? Uh oh looks like a few people are going hungry tonight. That's too bad I guess they should dance in the street a little more and maybe bread will fall from heaven.

    To be truly successful with capitalism you do not need to exploit anyone. You need to do exactly what you suggest, something you love. But if you are not good at what you love then you need to do something else you are good at. But what you choose to do must also provide benefits to others not just yourself. In this way capitalism makes cooperation a necessity, without it no one would have anymore than what they could provide for themselves alone. Capitalism is what allows people to be dancers, bakers, lawyers, doctors, farmers, carpenters, etc. Capitalism allows them to do what they are good at and trade their excesses to others for what they need and want.

    Now under capitalism the baker might still make only two loaves but if he wants people to come back he will most likely make enough to serve everyone that comes to his shop, not just because he likes baking, but because he is getting something in return. No one had to be exploited in the exchange and yet everyone gets what they wanted, the customer a loaf of bread and the baker, money to buy what he needs.

  26. Ostracized? So if I don't fit into your society you will just boot me out? I thought your society was based on fairness and equality. It looks as though your society is already crumbling before it has begun.

    Only in your eyes. It's not about simply not-fitting, it's about being a parasite. If one does not want to play by the rules that everyone has agreed, even though one very well could, there must be a way to stop them from becoming a burden to everyone else.

  27. So you are telling me that societal pressure will make the baker bake? I thought he baked because he loved it not because people were pressuring or forcing him to. What if he was the only one in town that loved to bake and everyone wanted his bread. Let us say that he is capable of making 10 loaves a day but now 20 people come to enjoy his bread. He is unable to provide enough bread for everyone and they starve. Will your society pressure someone else into making bread so that people do not starve?

    No you see, you're picking and choosing situations. If one wants to be a baker, he does so because he wants to. If one wants to be a lazy baker to the detriment of everyone else, then societal pressure would stop him from being lazy. If he is not lazy but cannot produce enough, then simply more bakers are required. If there aren't enough bakers or other people making food to fulfill the needs of society (something basically impossible) people just organize and agree to make it a "societal chore". But this is an impossible scenario since we already have something like 12x the food we require

  28. Could you just imagine all of the things we would not have if everyone left jobs that they did not love and only pursued activities that they loved. I work my job not because I love it but because it allows me to do the things I love. How does it do that? Because there exists a need and in order to fulfill that need someone is going to compensate me for my work. By providing them with something that they need I can now provide myself with the things that I need giving someone else the ability to do the same. That is why capitalism works. Because no matter how terrible a job is, if someone needs it to be done the money will be there to get it done.

    If everyone did what they loved, then certainly they would have been more productive and worked more because they loved what they did. I'm not certain what you're trying to achieve with what you're saying. If I could do, what I do voluntary already as my job, obviously I would do my job better.

    In Capitalism that doesn't work that way as you've pointed out. I do what I do not want, in order to do what I want, and that is simply because I am living in the developed countries. Most people in the world do what they do not want in order to survive. Fullstop.

    And again, your own example proves how Capitalism does not work. Millions of people need food, medication and shelter, but even though we have an abundance of them, there is no money to be made, and thus it does not happen.

  29. What if your town only has one farmer and his love is to grow flowers instead of wheat. Where would the baker get his wheat flour? In capitalism the farmer would grow wheat because there is a demand for it and he will be compensated for his efforts. Your system fails to ensure that people would be compensated not only for there work but for their ingenuity, perseverance, and determination.

    Untrue, if the only farmer in a town did not want to be a farmer, someone else would or maybe nobody had to. They would simply import or arrange to do this chore by rota. Your theoretical examples prove nothing more than how Capitalism makes people do what they don't like.

    Communism ensures that people are compensated by all what you mention by simply the fact that they have absolute freedom to do what they like all the time, not simply for the little time allowed to them by the Capitalist.

  30. Did you ever see that friends episode where Monica makes the candy and leaves it out for her neighbors? […]

    Yes, because fictional stories made to create comedy are a true representation of reality. I shouldn't be surprised however at your cartoonish argument.
    In the real world, people would have realized that she couldn't bake anymore. In the real world people who wanted as much would probably learn to make the candy themselves. In the real world, "Friends" does not work.

  31. Others can become chair makers just as well if they want to. Someone may even ask the chair maker to apprentice with him so that he can learn making chairs as well. Why would the chair maker refuse?

  32. The full product of their labour is their equal share of the profits (or simply the money you make out of their chairs, whatever). You're trying to find reasons to explain away the exploitation. Your determination and ideas already take care of you. exploiting workers is exploiting workers.

    Your vision of society completely leaves out everything other than manual labor. Not every task is equal. Should the guy at Mc Donald's who pushes the mop around the floor be paid the same as the guy who sweats all day over the grill?

    Yes, and since there is not money in Communism, nobody is being paid anything either. If the grill person does not like it, he can simply go away or arrange to switch positions with the mop guy or with the public relations guy.

    Should the manager, they guy that keeps everything working be paid the same? Without him it would not matter what work everyone else did because they would not make any money to keep in business.

    Of course it would. Someone else would simply take his place, perhaps the grill guy. Your circular reasoning that he is the manager because he does the best job at it, shows again. The workers can easily arrange between themselves who the manager is.

  33. How do you distribute goods in your society? Lets go back to the baker. IF their is one farmer and he does grow wheat lets 20 bushels. Now each baker demands 20 bushels in order to make enough bread for the citizens. Who gets the twenty bushels?

    The one who needs it the most. But your theoretical example is simply away from reality as we have already more than enough bushels.
    Find something realistic.

  34. I have news for you,[…]. All it took was the people exchanging for what they wanted and the needs of the society were met.

    I have news for you, I can make your theoretical scenario work as well. SImply the bad baker goes to the good baker and learns how to do good bread as well. Since they are not in competition, the good baker has a benefit to allowing the bad baker to learn since this will reduce their working hours or allow to feed more people. Everyone is again happy and nobody needs to stop doing what he likes.

  35. What if no one wanted to see me dance because my dancing sucks.[…]n fact they could provide misery to people and they would still be getting provided for.

    If somoene simply does a horrible job at something, cannot realize it and becomes a weight on the rest, either he would be pressured societaly to counterbalance it with something productive or be ostracized. And anyway, a performer who is horrible at is, usually gives up not because he does not get any money, but because he does not like the reactions he gets. The ones who don't because they believe in their work occasionally turn out to have created good content anyway when recognised after their death.

    The same thing applies to your baker example. If the baker is not doing what the society finds as a minimum in relation to the work of everyone else, then he will be pressured societally to make it up. I explained above what happens to lazy people but apparently you skipped it.

  36. To be truly successful with capitalism you do not need to exploit anyone[…]and trade their excesses to others for what they need and want.

    Err, I suggest you take out your rose coloured glasses and take note of all the people who cannot do what they want, not because they are bad at it, but because there is no market for it. Even though what they do might have been much more beneficial to humanity.

    Once again you're using the classic Libertarian thinking of merging correlation with causation. For you ,just because someone is doing a crappy job must mean that he is lazy or incompetent.

  37. Why should they get an equal stake?

    You obviously make enough money to support your business right? So basically you don't need any more workers but only want them so that you can make more money than you are making right now. How are you going to make more money? By exploiting the worker.
    So yes, either don't hire them, or pay them their fair share of their work. Don't try to play to poor person who sacrificed himself to help others. You have sacrificed nothing and are simply trying to get more money at the expense of others.

  38. It's your fault in the first place then for growing your business to the point of needing others. If you need others, you'd better pay them for the full value of what they produce and give them equal rights to the place they helped you to grow. If you don't need them, don't hire them.

  39. I picked the example not to talk about the baker but to talk about any position in your society. You see food supply has less to do with it than the general supply of all goods and services.

    I did not say he was a lazy baker, what I said was that he is incapable of keeping up with demand. You have severely misunderstood what I said to fit your own ideas.

    Not enough bakers is impossible you say? But I thought people would only do what they loved? So why could there not have too few bakers. How about another example, maybe their aren't enough sewer workers, what then?

    Ok if more bakers or sewer workers or any kind of worker are required, where do they come from?
    You say society organizes and agrees to make it a "social chore." How exactly is a societal organization any different than a government, especially a societal organization that decrees that a specific "societal chore" must be performed?

    Does everyone in the society have to agree on this "chore" or do those who object get to avoid the chore?
    What if no one wants to perform the "chore"? Will someone be forced to do it?
    For those tasked with performing the chore, do they not get taken away from doing the thing that they love? Have they now lost their freedom of choice?
    Oh, and what if no one else knows how to perform the chore because they lack the specific knowledge to do so? What then?

    This is also very interesting since your society has no real answer to the problem of not enough workers for an industry other than to force people who don't want to do the job to do it. Capitalism has a very simple solution to this problem of not enough bakers or sewer workers or whatever. You see, in capitalism if there is a shortage then the price will go up, that includes labor. So if their are not enough bakers, prices of bread will go up (supply and demand), new bakers will come into the business due to its profit potential and then prices will come back down once the need for bakers and the supply of bread has been filled. There need not be a town meeting or a social chore and still everyone gets to do what they want. Simple, right?

    Oh and if one of the new bakers somehow figures out a way to make more bread at a lower cost (innovation) then he can beat the prices of the other bakers and provide still more bread for the people. This perfect play in capitalist greed by the baker has now revolutionized bread making, making him rich whilst simultaneously saving the people from starvation. Now the people can go out and pursue their own endeavors with the extra time and money they have saved in bread costs. Do you see how capitalism has made everyone more wealthy in this example or has someone still been exploited?

    The only exploitation I see is by the towns people assigning some "social chore" on some poor guy who doesn't want to do it.

    One more thing, in capitalism there is no requirement of "societal pressure" to make people not be lazy. The thing that makes people not be lazy is the fact that if they are to lazy then they will not be able to feed themselves. Oh yeah and in your society what amount of laziness will you allow people to have? Will people be pressured for taking to long a break or not working hard enough? Where to your "societal pressure" administration draw the line?

  40. Yes, exactly. Your society would breed parasites in the same way that the social system in America do.

    Away to stop them? Could that be an authoritative force?

  41. Yes, exactly. Your society would breed parasites in the same way that the social system in America do.

    A way to stop them? Could that be an authoritative force?

  42. Yes, exactly. Your society would breed parasites in the same way that the social system in America do

    No it wouldn't. Basically because Socialism is nothing like U.S.A.

  43. How exactly is a societal organization any different than a government, especially a societal organization that decrees that a specific "societal chore" must be performed?

    Do you have a government in your family when you agree who gets to wash the dishes?

  44. Does everyone in the society have to agree on this "chore" or do those who object get to avoid the chore?
    What if no one wants to perform the "chore"? Will someone be forced to do it?

    Do you avoid cleaning the toilet in your house because nobody wants to do it? If you don't agree to clean the toilet do you get to avoid doing it?

  45. For those tasked with performing the chore, do they not get taken away from doing the thing that they love? Have they now lost their freedom of choice?

    When you clean your toilet, do you not lose time from doing what you want? Do you never clean your toilet so that you don't lose your freedom?

  46. Oh, and what if no one else knows how to perform the chore because they lack the specific knowledge to do so? What then

    They learn?

  47. Capitalism has a very simple solution to this problem of not enough bakers or sewer workers or whatever.

    Force people who don't want to do the job to do it.

  48. There need not be a town meeting or a social chore and still everyone gets to do what they want. Simple, right?

    if you ignore the fact of all the people who end up doing work they do not like and all the people who do not get their needs fulfilled because there's no profit in being a baker. Then yes.

  49. No, my example proves that capitalism motivates people to do what needs to be done (and without authoritative force telling them to do so). You agree with by your statement that it "makes people do what they don't like." But you fail in every attempt to prove how your system gets people to do the same. Your only explanation so far has been that if a need is not filled then the people will come together and create a schedule or "social chore." This is central planning and it's finest and that central planing will evolve into authoritative government because it has to in order to get people to do what they don't want to by choice since they are not compensated any differently for doing so.

    Communism ensures that people are compensated by all what you mention by simply the fact that they have absolute freedom to do what they like all the time, not simply for the little time allowed to them by the Capitalist.</blockqoute>
    What does this even mean?

    Again, you say that it ensures that everyone is compensated, but you fail to explain how it does so without creating an authoritative government telling people what to do. You have said this in your own words, that the people will create chores for each other to do. So much for your vision of people being free to do what they want while having all of their needs met.

  50. This is also very interesting since your society has no real answer to the problem of not enough workers for an industry other than to force people who don't want to do the job to do it.

    There is. People volunteer to do it for the good of the society. Simple no?

  51. Oh and if one of the new bakers somehow figures out a way to make more bread at a lower cost (innovation) then he can beat the prices of the other bakers and provide still more bread for the people.

    Oh and if one of the communist bakers figures out a way to make more breat at less time (invention) then he can share the knowledge and help all bakers work less time. Amazing eh?

  52. This perfect play in capitalist greed by the baker has now revolutionized bread making, making him rich whilst simultaneously saving the people from starvation. Now the people can go out and pursue their own endeavors with the extra time and money they have saved in bread costs.

    If you ignore the bakers who are now out of work and must seek a job they do not like. All the workers from that baker who got laid off because they are not needed anymore to make the same amount of bread. All the money that is lost of all those people left without a job and now must find a crappier, more exploitative job leaving them with less time and money to pursue their own endeavors…yeah I see it now!

  53. The only exploitation I see is by the towns people assigning some "social chore" on some poor guy who doesn't want to do it.

    Or, you know, everyone sharing the work and thus spreading the "misfortune" so thinly that it's not a problem anymore?

  54. One more thing, in capitalism there is no requirement of "societal pressure" to make people not be lazy. The thing that makes people not be lazy is the fact that if they are to lazy then they will not be able to feed themselves.

    Brilliant! There's no societal pressure which is basically only psychological and moral. Only economic pressure which is lethal.

  55. Oh yeah and in your society what amount of laziness will you allow people to have? Will people be pressured for taking to long a break or not working hard enough? Where to your "societal pressure" administration draw the line?

    People will be pressured depending on how much less they work than everyone else. The people working with them can decide if they are lazy or just very productive.

  56. Nope. All experiments have shown that people work more productively when it is voluntary. Indeed, making more money does not mean that someone is more productive, on the contrary it usually means the opposite and I'm talking from personal experience.

    This is why startups or examples like this do so well.

  57. or would they do better knowing that they will receive nothing more and nothing less no matter what the quality of the job they do?

    Which is what happens with most wage-slaves you mean?

  58. Fiction or not it is a perfect example of how your system will be abused by people once the realize they can abuse it. If you bothered to examine the argument you would see how it perfectly applies to our topic. It does not matter where an analogy comes from just that it makes sense and the one I gave is perfect. I know it is perfect because you've chosen to attack it instead of the premise.

    In the real world people abuse each others kindness all the time. In the real world people take welfare and social security checks when they don't need them not even caring that someone worked hard to provide those dollars. In the real world if you leave a box of donuts in an office they will all be eaten before you can turn around regardless of who they are for or where they came from. In the real world people could care less about how many of something there are for everyone if it says free they are taking all that they can.

    In the real world people will not bother to make candy if they can get it free somewhere else. In the real world people do not care how much candy you can make they will still want as much of it as they can get.

    How's this for real world: In Ethiopia people are given food aid while farm fields sit fallow. Why? Because the food aid is free and it takes work to farm a field. This real world example has the added benefit in that the people don't just wait patiently for the food the storm the trucks carrying off as much as they can regardless of how many others are waiting.

    Just because it is a TV show does not mean that it is not a true example of people taking advantage of kindness.

    What world do you live in where all of these people are going to deny themselves in order to make certain that everyone else is taken care of?

  59. Nope, not a central comitee. Democracy. Better than fucking everyone over so that you get to live the good life.

  60. Fiction or not it is a perfect example of how your system will be abused by people once the realize they can abuse it.

    Only in the cartoonish reality Libertarians live in I guess.

  61. f you bothered to examine the argument you would see how it perfectly applies to our topic. It does not matter where an analogy comes from just that it makes sense and the one I gave is perfect. I know it is perfect because you've chosen to attack it instead of the premise.

    Really? So you missed the part where I told you what would really happen?

  62. In the real world people abuse each others kindness all the time.

    In the real world of Capitalism you mean? It is not always like this and it was not like this at all before private property. So you're horribly wrong. It is a far more beneficial tactic for the individual to cooperate than defect, expecially when most people in the world follow a tit-for-tat method

  63. How's this for real world: In Ethiopia people are given food aid while farm fields sit fallow. Why? Because the food aid is free and it takes work to farm a field.

    More cartoonish Libertarian reality. The warlords who steal the food and control the land obviously have nothing to do with it. The invisible hand of the market has striken them down!

  64. Just because it is a TV show does not mean that it is not a true example of people taking advantage of kindness.

    Just because it's a cartoonish representation of reality in order to create laughs it does not mean it can't be used as a Libertarian argument when it fits.

  65. What world do you live in where all of these people are going to deny themselves in order to make certain that everyone else is taken care of?

    A perfect world? Where everyone denies himself so that I can have anything I want and they can rest assured of the same? How bad must that be!

  66. How do you do it? If your wife doesn't do her chores, what do you do? If you don't do your chores, what does your wife do?

    (Asking because I'm too unimaginative: anything I can think of, even if it's mild and acceptable in a family, only seems to be analogous to payment or coercion for society at large.)

  67. Which is why I'm opposed to having anyone in power when they're not immediately revocable and I also do not think communism can work without an aware worker's force who can recognise people who start to get authoritarian quickly.

  68. And generally they simply let their money work for them. They don't make money, they simply pay others to make money for them.

  69. If one member in the family does not do the chores you usually discuss it and find a solution which works for both.Perhaps one does some chores which he prefers while the other does some others (this is the way I do it with my gf) As long as both members care to stay in the relationship, a solution can be agreed.

  70. Why? Because you keep imagining a government where there is none little libtardian? But I guess being so disconnected from reality is enough. And by that it's enough for me libtardian, I don't have time to waste explaining the same thing again and again and again and again to someone who only want to bring up the same unfounded boogeyman. Time for the banhammer to fall. Consider this your first warning.

  71. Why would I clean a sewer system for everyone else just because it would benefit me. It would benefit me more to just take care of my own waste and install a septic system. Your society would actually encourage people to do things independently instead cooperating because it is much simpler to deal with things yourself then to deal with working with other people when everything is based on the faith that people will do what needs to be done.

    Why would I clean the sewer when I could do anything else that benefits me as well. Do you see why your sewer wouldn't be cleaned without some authority forcing people to do it.

    Do you not see the complications of relying on others to provide for you the things you want? No one in the society would be smart enough themselves to determine what it is the society needs from them. Think about everyone just doing what they wanted. No one would know what the society needs because they would have no signal telling them. IN capitalism the price signal tells people. Jobs and goods that cost more are that way because they are in demand. If they are in demand then people choose to produce those things or enter those professions because they have more value and a person selling those goods or services can obtain that value for themselves. Why would anyone go through the trouble of becoming a doctor if the doctor did not receive greater compensation for his services than a burger flipper.

  72. Why would I clean a sewer system for everyone else just because it would benefit me. It would benefit me more to just take care of my own waste and install a septic system.

    If you can do that, obviously everyone else would be able to as well. I'm talking about things that you can't escape sharing with others. Stop trying to avoid the point.

  73. Why would anyone go through the trouble of becoming a doctor if the doctor did not receive greater compensation for his services than a burger flipper.

    Because he wants to? Because that's his calling? AFAIK, most doctors don't do it for the money, or else they would have gone to other more luxurious positions. Indeed, most people who get to choose their profession (instead of being forced in it) don't do it on the basis of money.

  74. That might work, but then it wouldn't really make a difference if it were communism or capitalism, unless such workplaces aren't particularly more productive than authoritarian workplaces.

  75. I agree you can't escape sharing things with others. But I am not avoiding the point, you are. Somethings are valued more highly than others just as some people's work has more value than others. You are attempting to say that all work is the same and that everyone would share their work because everyone would benefit. But they would not, the people doing less work would benefit from those doing more and those doing more would suffer. You cannot guarantee that everyone does the same amount of work and in the end your system fails to sustain itself.

    By the way it is really annoying when you split my argument up into individual statements to attack. Why don't you respond to the whole of the argument or do you feel that it would be to difficult to prove me wrong if you were to take my arguments in context. I will not be responding anymore because of that and the fact that you have consistently skirted the issues that I bring up simply by stating that I am wrong without backing it up with anything.

    In any event I have forced you to admit that an authority would need to exist that told people what jobs to do (the case of the baker/sewer worker) and that people would not really be free to do what they love as you claim (again the "societal chore"), and the question of how everything that everyone wants gets produced, not just needs, without there being some kind of signal (like price signals in capitalism) that lets people know what is needed or wanted. Neither have you addressed the point that some people may worker harder than others and receive no added benefit and the affect that that would have on the productivity of the society overall. Anyone reading these arguments can see that none of the questions that I had posed to you were answered and that is all I needed to show.

  76. The difference is that under capitalism, you automatically need to have authoritarian power over the people you employ. You also need a higher authority to enforce property rights and contracts.

  77. Exactly. It is to your benefit to do your part of the societal chores in the same way you do your house chores.

  78. Yes but I am cleaning it for myself, I directly benefit from it being clean. I do not directly benefit from you haveing a clean toilet, actually I could care less about your toilet because I've got my own things to worry about, your dirty toilet is none of my concern. Could you please come to my house and clean my toilet, I would like that and you should do it because it would benefit my society if you did.

    You are so funny, you are making my point for me.

  79. Do you tell your wife to do her chores in an authoritarian way as well? So no, obviously you've proven nothing of the sort but don't let me detain you from claiming internet victory

  80. Do you now see how cleaning the sewer is a direct benefit to you and why you might consider doing it the same way you clean your toilet?

  81. Capitalists generally don't know anything more than how to make money. The workers are the ones with the skills, and those will remain.

  82. Er, no I didn't say the town would force someone. That's just you filtering everything through your preconceptions. I said the town would decide and they might just as well arrange for everyone to contribute a little instead of dumping it all on one unfortunate person.

    I have admitted nothing of the short but I guess that hard for you to understand if it means stepping outside the libertarian box. Continue this way thought and I'll start calling you libtardian for your lack of understanding.

  83. me cleaning your toilet does not benefit me obviously. Cleaning the sewer does and so does you, so why should I be cleaning your part of the sewer? Come down here and help you lazy bastard.

  84. Like the opressive authoritarian governments the US regularly funds when they promise to allow them to exploit the wealth and the people? Yeah I know.

  85. Yet capitalism is still able to provide more for everyone than your system of force ever could, and the previous attempts at it have shown.

    You insist on calling it a "system of force" libtardian? I do not care to continue discussing with someone who cannot understand simple concepts.

  86. Again, why would he even spend the time to do such a thing, isn't he producing at capacity now to fulfill the peoples needs for the good of society. How could he possible have enough to to create new ways of doing anything? Plus why would he bother if the societies needs are already being met with the current methods?

    That's right he wouldn't. So in essence the society would never advance to greater things since everyone's needs are already met so there is no need for greater production capacity. I see how your system works now, if nothing in the society changes then nothing in the society needs to change. Very good, meanwhile outside your society the rest of the world is advancing new technology to improve their lives, things made possible only through the GREED of capitalists to make their own lives better. How dare they advance the lives of others as a by product of their own greed. Stop profiting from invention now or else we will all have too much stuff. Yes it is making sense to me know.

  87. Again, why would he even spend the time to do such a thing, isn't he producing at capacity now to fulfill the peoples needs for the good of society. How could he possible have enough to to create new ways of doing anything? Plus why would he bother if the societies needs are already being met with the current methods?

    That's right he wouldn't. So in essence the society would never advance to greater things since everyone's needs are already met so there is no need for greater production capacity. I see how your system works now, if nothing in the society changes then nothing in the society needs to change. Very good, meanwhile outside your society the rest of the world is advancing new technology to improve their lives, things made possible only through the GREED of capitalists to make their own lives better. How dare they advance the lives of others as a by product of their own greed. Stop profiting from invention now or else we will all have too much stuff. Yes it is making sense to me now.

  88. Again, why would he even spend the time to do such a thing,

    I dunno, maybe because it would mean working less hours for the same production? Why would a person ever do that eh?

  89. I have grave doubts that most capitalists even know how to make money, at least anymore than anyone else. All too often it seems they're just effective in convincing others that they know how to make money, regardless of the truth of the matter …

  90. I see how your system works now, if nothing in the society changes then nothing in the society needs to change. Very good,

    Yes indeed very good. You seem to be totally impervious to understanding basically anything. Whatever I say, you keep repeating the same shit as if I had said nothing at all.

    At this point I realize there's no point discussing any more with you, as you seem incapable of grasping even simple explanations so I will not waste any more time with you.

    Anyone who peruses this farcical discussion with a libtardian is welcome to make their own mind

  91. Sharing yes, and who makes them share it? Do they share by choice? What if someone misses their duty? Do they get punished? By whom? Oh yes that non governmental, not authoritative force you call the "Sociatal meeting"

  92. now they don't have to deal with the stress of managing a business (no not everyone can do it, regardless of how you think your Utopian society would be run).

    Most worker runned coops, once again, prove you wrong. I wonder how many times real life must prove you wrong before you decide to stop preaching bullshit. I mean, isn't sinking the world economy enough?

  93. We'll see. Our society is already crumbling because of libertarian economics so I'm prepared to give mine a shot.

  94. Who decides how much work each person is doing? Oh so everyone is going to be a snitch on everyone else I see? But who are they going to tell? Father government?

    Your arguments are devolving just as I said they would. You are creating the perfect rational for an authoritative government.

  95. I think you may be giving ammunition to capitalist ideologues: because they do so well, they'll out-compete the authoritarian competition and democratic workplaces would spread naturally, i.e. the free market works! (Supposedly.) ๐Ÿ˜›

    I don't give too much credence to the argument, though: too many people are control freaks and get too easily drunk on power.

  96. I don't know, South Korea has a glut of medical students and doctors because it used to be a guaranteed way to earn a whole lot of money (same thing with lawyers and a few other jobs). And then some jobs like teachers have job security. Engineers and scientists, on the other hand …

  97. I'm confused. Do the workplaces you're referring to exist independently from our mostly capitalist societies?

  98. Dbo, give it up, one of the greatest abilities we humans have is the ability to learn fairly quickly compared to other organisms. You obviously didn't know much about economics when you formulated your system, but now you know a lot more thanks to people like Easye. Others have gone down the same path you are on and seen that it's a dead end. Capitalism has many faults, but it is so enduring because it solves the problems you're currently running into. These problems, of incentive, of what to produce, of signals, of relative values, are fundamental to human society and must be addressed by all systems. Capitalism currently offers the best solution, for you to replace capitalism with a truly better system, you must offer a better method–the day a better method is offered, the world will move away from capitalism. The tide will be unstoppable just as capitalism's rise is today.

    You need to address these "problems", not shy away from them. Perhaps you should consider that capitalism IS the best solution that is possible. It may not give you the answer you want, but then again we're constrained by reality all the time. The laws of physics forbid us from thinking into existence whatever it is we want. And so perhaps the natural laws of human society and interaction forbid the existence of the society you envision. Even if they don't, it is clear your system can't adequately deal with the aforementioned. It's time to make an U-turn and get back on the right path.

  99. "such freedom creates inequality and exploitation"

    This is a concept that I'm interested in exploring – could you send me some links via e-mail or something? cheers.

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