A brilliant quote succintly explaining why rape jokes are harmful.
Via chickwithmonkey I have discovered this excellent comment from Time Machine explaining just how rape jokes are harmful. Quoted here in it’s entirety, for truth, justice and the ‘murican way FUCK YEAH and because the original thread is 1000+ comments deep and takes ages to load.
[Note: Many people on Reddit have expressed the sentiment that while they agree with the substance, they have a problem with the condescending tone. This is because the comment I’m reposting was on a blog post and was made in response to a guy who was actually arguing that it’s okay for him to make rape jokes with his friends. While it starts by addressing all men, it’s coloured by the reaction to that particular guy.]
To all those who don’t think the rape joke was a problem, or rape jokes are a problem.
I get it, you’re a decent guy. I can even believe it. You’ve never raped anybody. You would NEVER rape anybody. You’re upset that all these feminists are trying to accuse you of doing something or connect you to doing something that, as far as you’re concerned, you’ve never done and would never condone.
And they’ve told you about triggers, and PTSD, and how one in six women is a survivor, and you get it. You do. But you can’t let every time someone gets all upset get in the way of you having a good time, right?
So fine. If all those arguments aren’t going anything for you, let me tell you this. And I tell you this because I genuinely believe you mean it when you say you don’t want to hurt anybody, and you don’t see the harm, and that it’s important to you to do your best to be a decent and good person. And I genuinely believe you when you say you would never associate with a rapist and you think rape really is a very bad thing.
Because this is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down-
6% of Penny Arcade’s target demographic will admit to actually being rapists when asked.
A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?
Rapists do.
They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.
Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.
If one in twenty guys is a real and true rapist, and you have any amount of social activity with other guys like yourself, really cool guy, then it is almost a statistical certainty that one time hanging out with friends and their friends, playing Halo with a bunch of guys online, in a WoW guild, or elsewhere, you were talking to a rapist. Not your fault. You can’t tell a rapist apart any better than anyone else can. It’s not like they announce themselves.
But, here’s the thing. It’s very likely that in some of these interactions with these guys, at some point or another someone told a rape joke. You, decent guy that you are, understood that they didn’t mean it, and it was just a joke. And so you laughed.
And, decent guy who would never condone rape, who would step in and stop rape if he saw it, who understands that rape is awful and wrong and bad, when you laughed?
That rapist who was in the group with you, that rapist thought that you were on his side. That rapist knew that you were a rapist like him. And he felt validated, and he felt he was among his comrades.
You. The rapist’s comrade.
And if that doesn’t make you feel sick to your stomach, if that doesn’t make you want to throw up, if that doesn’t disturb you or bother you or make you feel like maybe you should at least consider not participating in that kind of humor anymore…
Well, maybe you aren’t as opposed to rapists as you claim.
This is a perfect example of how social norms are insidiously perpetuating acts you might not expect. Just from a seemingly harmless activity like laughing as a rape joke, a sexist joke, a racist joke and so on.
PS: Protip (for chickwithmonkey). You can find a permalink to a Disqus comment under the date of the comment (Where it says something like “1 day ago”.) Same with Intense Debate that I’m using here.
thx for the tip! I think linking was disabled because it's a closed thread, but I will investigate further. I also can't figure out how to alert time-machine that the quote has been linked without joining tumblr myself.
Nah, permalinks to comments are still visible (this is how I got it).
I would think that tumblr reports trackbacks so if you link to a specific post, they should see it (in the same way I guess you discovered this post). However since you linked to their full tumblr page, there won't be a trackback but if tumblr offers any kind of website stats, they should see it in their referrals.
So we're basically restricted to puns and poop jokes when it comes to humor?
Is that all you can think of outside of rape jokes? Weird because Eddy Izzard manages to have quite lengthy stand-up comedies without any rape jokes.
Like I said before in our discussion on Facebook, no. It means that we shouldn't tell jokes that "reinforce…comfort in…prejudices," are "emotionally callous," or demonstrate that you haven't been thoughtful about the subject matter.
Quoting further from Rad Geek's comments:
"There are lots of different ways to use horrible events in humor; some of those are sensitive and others callous; and some events are much harder to joke about than others. Hundreds of murdered children [or rapes – neverfox] are, or ought to be, one of the harder things to joke about.
Generally speaking, I think that many people tend to be a lot more callous than they might otherwise be when the victims of the event are easily distanced from both the joke-teller and the intended audience. One of the ways that people distance themselves from their fellow human beings is by projecting irrationality, stupidity, or insanity onto the butts of their jokes. But that sort of scorn borders on meanness even in the best of cases, and it ought to be viewed with an awful lot of suspicion when really horrible suffering and innocent victims are thrown into the mix."
Saying, "So we're basically restricted to puns and poop jokes when it comes to humor?" is a silly response to "Don't be a dick." If your joke repertoire beyond puns and poop jokes lacks any sensitive, thoughtful, discomforting, cathartic, coping, and/or sympathetic black humor material, get some new jokes. Do you seriously think that there is no humor beyond the union of puns, poop jokes and thoughtless black humor?
Is there some kind of big discussion happening in facebook? I see a lot of incoming visitors from there but I don't get a proper referral link
While not all feminist think all men are rapists, the feminist Marilyn French did make the statement, “All men are rapists, and that’s all they are.” Thus began the concept discussed here.
Can I have that quote with context please?
Even if that one feminist did say that, that says nothing about all feminists, or even some feminists.
Actually Marylin French never said that, it was a character from one of her books, and she was a bit of an overboard feminist.
Pretty sure this character was completely made up
Although the story was about women and feminists of the 50's.
@db0 – It was said by a character in one of her novels. Some people have a hard time with the concept of “fiction” apparently.
@benadam – Ever read Stephen King’s “Apt Pupil”? The one where he describes a Jewish girl being raped with an electrified object? To the best of my knowledge, King has neither done this nor supports it. As noted, that’s why it’s called fiction- because it is imaginary. Use of extreme examples in fiction to drive home the author’s point are a pretty common element in novels.
By contrast, you can find nonfiction quotes throughout history, from a broad spectrum of major figures, that downgrade women to the level of housepets, there only at the master’s whim and for his unquestioned use. And they MEANT it. Can you outraged male types call any to mind as quickly as you did the French quote, or will you be spending the next hour in the company of Google? Inquiring minds want to know.
Yeah, I figured it was a mined quote. I think I read about it somewhere else as well so I was cautious to accept it at face value.
I'd really like to see where you got this idea that rapists think that all men rape. I can't seem to find it anywhere.
From what Time Machine said, it's been shown by studies.
What a load of condescending, misleading nonsense. The whole basis of this post is absurd.
Firstly, there's no evidence of this survey showing that rapists think other men are rapists. Secondly, even if this survey does exist and the results are as described, how do rape jokes come into it? If anyone is of the twisted state of mind to commit a heinous act like rape, I seriously doubt hearing jokes about sexual assaults would drive them on or even normalise the act for them. The two most common driving factors behind rape are anger/resentment towards women and the need to control/dominate them. This post refers to rape like it's a bad habit practised casually by the odd few guys.
I seriously doubt the truth behind what's written above. As the writer of it says at the beginning:
<the comment I'm reposting… was made in response to a guy who was actually arguing that it's okay for him to make rape jokes with his friends. While it starts by addressing all men, it's coloured by the reaction to that particular guy>
This shows it was written to win an argument more than anything else. The writer of it then tells us that if you don't agree with these questionable points, you're essentially condoning a rapists actions.
This post is clearly leaning towards the feminist side as it has all the hallmarks. The condescending tone aside, the one part that got me was:
<6% of college age men, slightly over 1 in 20, will admit to raping someone in anonymous surveys, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used in the description of the act>
This leaves it open for the interviewer to interpret answers following their own, often misleading questions. Stephen Levitt discusses this in his book Freakonomics when he refers to how feminist groups distort data to serve their own needs.
All in all, I find this post false and ignorant. It has been written to enforce the writer's own dislike of jokes in bad taste. There's nothing funny about rape, but jokes on the subject are far removed from the act. We can't start labelling things that shouldn't be part of humour.
The below study already shows that one does not need to be twisted to perform rape. In fact, many do so with only marginal conscience issues because the acts (date rape, spousal rape etc)) are so normalized through rape jokes and lack of peer pressure.
It's a bit drastic to say that date rape is anywhere near normalised in society. Rape is a highly vilified act. If we were all to ban rape jokes and launch a campaign informing people on the topic of sexual assault, perhaps encouraging the peer pressure you mentioned, I seriously doubt you would see any drastic change. Rape is not a societal issue like driving while drunk or vandalism, it is largely linked to a psychosis and runs deeper than any public consensus. I feel that the post attempts to downplay rape so the correlation between jokes can be made.
I do acknowledge though that there are many types of rape, each with varying societal perceptions. However, none of these are 'normalised' in any manner. No amount of inappropriate humour will change that
Date rape is very normalized in a society where a lot of males expect that if a woman is dressed provocativelly, she has already consented to sex or if a woman follows them home, she has already consented to sex, or if she gets into the same bed with them, she has already consented to sex. Or a number of other scenarios where it's taken as silent consent of the woman. It's part of the big victim blaming that goes on in date rape cases. It's precicely because rape is so normalized in modern society, that so many cases of rape are not considered "rape-rape" and you are under the mistaken impression that only psychotics can be rapists.
eeeh I think date rape is normalized.
I think this is primarily because it is often unclear what "consent" really is. That's why hooking up with someone when they are drunk or partying could be considered "taking advantage". Date rape isn't necessarily roofying somebody, dragging them into a room and raping them. Date rape can be a number of things, even a night of sex that was perceived as consensual, because one party was extremely intoxicated, or perhaps both parties were soberly compromised, but the quality of consent under those circumstances is diminished. This is why it is "respectable" to not hook up with someone when they're shitfaced – because you A) Want both parties to be truly consenting, B) do not want to regret it in the morning C) want to remember it and D) hopefully do it again
I think the idea that making a joke of something making it more palatable isn't that far fetched. Racist jokes tend to make people who aren't racist uncomfortable. Have you ever felt that? When someone uses a racist slur and it makes you nervous? And you think "are they racist"? And you know they probably aren't – but why do they think it's funny? Things become normalized through cultural acceptance. Laughter makes things easier to swallow. When you laugh at something, you imply it's OK – wetting the bed, puking in your boyfriends mouth when you have the flu, watching your best friend trip over a garbage can and fall on his ass – why is it any different for rape? it isn't. rape is still sadly common. rapists think their behaviour is ok. by saying "no" to rape jokes, you break a social norm to assert a new one: rape is serious and not cool. period.
There's nothing wrong in trying to be convincing. It doesn't say anything about the truth of one's arguments.
When trying to win an argument one doesn't look at everything objectively. Had this been a fully researched study you could maybe argue otherwise. And 'truth' within the above post is few and far between
This does not follow.
YOu expect a fully researched study in the comments of a blog?
This does not follow.
Ok how doesn't it follow?
You've got it wrong. You need to show how it follows that by leaving the word "rape" outside of the question, the questions are misleading, or the answers "interpreted"
"This leaves it open for the interviewer to interpret answers following their own, often misleading questions. Stephen Levitt discusses this in his book Freakonomics when he refers to how feminist groups distort data to serve their own needs."
What exactly does Steven Levitt (or anyone else) believe feminists "needs" to be? I'm confused about what kind of an "agenda" feminists are thought to have. In other words- what threat do "feminist groups'" needs pose?
It's shocking to hear that feminists of any kind are still around, what with how skanky-ness has risen in popularity and acceptance in the past decade. Also, define "rape joke". Is it someone who was just annihilated while playing Call of Duty and exclaims, "dude, i just got RAPED!" or is it "haha, wouldn't it be funny if somebody raped that girl?" or are they jokes about dropping the soap, Porky Pig or Deliverance? People do use humour to help them deal with things and confront subject matter that can be uncomfortable to talk about. An argument could be made that the ressurgeance of racism (I'm not saying that it went away, but it really seems to have made a comeback), that with jokes about races/cultures from Russell Peters (or whoever, I don't mean to pick on him), people think that it's alright to stereotype again. Perhaps some of the people making these jokes are fine with rape or racism in the real world, or maybe they undersand the line between fantasy and reality and while the Joker pushing somebody in front of a bus in a comic might be funny, when there are real world conequences, nobody would laugh.
"skanky-ness"? WTF are you on about?
Ohhhh… I get it.
It’s basic slut-shaming. “People who dress like _____ , couldn’t possibly be feminists because…. slut.”
Uh, nope. Incorrect charles.
Actually, one of the basic tenets of ‘How not to rape” is that clothing is not a marker of consent. And feminists frequently wear clothes. And they’re definitely into consent.
That's a nice rationalization but it misses the point that using such jokes erodes the line between fantasy and reality and reinforces the ideas of racists for whom those things are funny.
pt. 2
So let's have discussions; let's reach out to rapists and racists and anyone else out there who holds harmful beliefs and convince themotherwise and that they need to change before they hurt someone for real. If one of your friends makes a joke that goes over a line, TELL THEM! "Too far, dude." That way, you aren't reinforcing negative beliefs, embarrasing or alienating them. If they were relying on social signals to reinforce their desire to rape as socially acceptable, they'll pick up on the cues that their peers disapprove of that kind of behaviour.
As a great man once said, "Kobe, don't be rapin'."
This is what I'm doing on this post. Only pointing out that all rape jokes are over a line.
Penny Arcade has made comics about accidental and deliberate murder. Summoning demons. Poop on a truly heroic scale. Juicing machines run rampant sodomizing oranges.
And this non-issue becomes a festering, never ending diatribe by the self righteous.
They write one cartoon in which, if you play video games and in particular World of Warcraft, you will get why they chose what they did. If you play games like this, often you're tasked with saving X number of villagers/farmers/poor slobs who have been captured by some evil group or another. Once you have achieved said goal, you leave to turn in your quest, often to the pitying cries of those still in cages. The comic pointed out, humorously, how the gamer will simply fill their quota and then scamper off to merrily receive their prize, regardless of the horrors set to befall the captives left behind.
When taken in perspective, this ludicrous hullabaloo, and amateurish … well, for want of a better word, "articles" such as this, somehow don't seem like such an issue. This sort of preposterous pandering to the easily offended is comical at best, pathetic when looked at realistically. Just drop it. You're beating a dead horse.
Missed the point by miles. Come again when you've understood what the discussion is all about.
Bullshit. Most of the time, those making those jokes have nothing to do with the subject matter and have no problem talking about it. This is why they can joke about it so casually.
I'm sympathetic to the point made here, and I agree that any comment, whether humorous or not, that can be interpreted as condoning rape should be firmly opposed. Flying Spaghetti Monster grant me the courage to do so whenever I have to.
But unlike many of the horrible, rapist-enabling rape jokes that float around the Internet and real life conversations, the Penny Arcade strip to which you are obviously referring is unlikely to have the effect you describe. "Raped to sleep by dickwolves" is a hyperbole used to drive home the point that the slaves live an unspeakably horrible existence. The word "rape" is used precisely because the act is perceived to be so unspeakably horrible. I fail to see how a rape joke, in this context, could be interpreted by a rapist as evidence that all men rape and see it as a normal and acceptable behaviour.
I wasn't obviously referring to the PA strip. PA received flak initially for not using trigger warnings and THEN for openly mocking those who spoke about triggers and THEN by making a T-Shirt which amounted to "Go Team Rapist" and naturally for stroking and fanning the flames of misogyny and rape apologia from their audience.
THAT is why PA got in the shit. NOT, just because it made a joke which referenced rape in some capacity.
People continue to perpetuate the false information that the brouhaha was about PA's "rape joke" because it's a handy strawman.
I'm concerned about a few things in this article. First of all, it's misleading to say that x amount of people said they had committed rape in a survey that doesn't use the term. I want to know exPLICitly what they conceded to having done… because if it's as much as imploring someone verbally for sexual contact, then we're being misled by hearing about the preponderance of rapists. I agree that more sensitivity is warranted in this society about this issue, though; it's strange that most of the people I've seen making rape jokes have been women, however… two partners have threatened to "tie [me] up and rape [me]"… So I agree that we should wash that out of our vocabulary at such inappropriate times, but I'm also careful about the threat of misinformation in this article.
Great. Read the survey analysis and then get back to us.
The burden of proof always lies with the claimant in an argument that claims factuality. Mammon made no claim suggesting that the statistics don't illustrate this–it was simply argued that the claim was misleading. The quoted claim was, itself, unsupported by citation and completely vague about what qualified as rape. I agree completely that rape jokes are never appropriate, and that they reinforce the mental trickeries rapists use to live with themselves, but the above article is chock-full of straw men, equivocation, "weasel words", twisted statistics and multiple other fallacies. Your cause is righteous, but tricking people into doing the right thing is no better (and arguably worse) than failing to rationally convince someone of a truly legitimate point.
The survey asked about something that qualifies as rape. The whole point is that things differ when you ask someone if they have raped someone, because many consider something that qualifies as rape, as not-rape.
Unfortunately, the link isn’t working. I wanted to read it, too.
+1 to the original poster for intelligently and logically explaining her argument.
-1 For whomever (op or db0) for failing to provide links to the statistics. 99% of all statistics used are false. It's a statistic, it must be true.
The problem is that a knife like this cuts both ways. If men telling rape jokes makes rapists feel okay about raping, then every time my exes friend used her personal bias to say "all men are cheating pigs" then she's responsible for my break up, because my ex drove me nuts always accusing me of cheating. Or every time the TV tells me that the McRib is yummy, they are trying to give me Diabetes and the TV should have to pay for my surgery to get my foot cut off.
I am not responsible for anyone else actions, or beliefs. I can only be responsible for mine. and all men aren't rapists. All feminists don't think all men are rapists and (assuming OPs statistics are correct) not all rapists believe men are all rapists (OP says "Virtually", and even if that's accurate that means that there might be one rapist who doesn't thingk that hence not "all")
I'm not siding with rape. Or rapists. Or rape jokes. all three are pretty f'ing lame.
But I will never change my behavior because of how other perceive it. You don't like me? Bite me. Sorry your gay and feel that gay joke perpetuates homophobia, but it was damn funny, and I say that coming from a background that was pro gay. (my mother is a lesbian)
So instead of trying to get people to change their behavior, which is very unlikely to happen, instead come up with a funner joke that's not offensive to you and everyone will forget the rape joke. the second funniest bit is never circulated as much as the funniest one.
The original was a comment under a blogpost, while arguing with mens rights activists so it shouldn't really be held to very high standards of sourcing. They provided later one source, which I've linked to directly within the text above, but I don't have a source on whether rapists do consider all other men to be covert racists, which I agree would be nice to have.
To answer the meat of your question, sorry, but you are just wrong on this. People absolutely should get people to change their behaviour and not only is this a natural process for humans, but it is also very succesful as both the civil rights movement, the LGBT movement and the feminist movements can attest. To think that human behaviour in unmoldable is absurd. We change our behaviour according to the reaction we get from the people around us constantly. Positive reaction reinforces a particular behaviour while negative reaction repels us from other kinds. The extremely negative reaction of the Black movement is why racists don't dare to call PoC "Niggers" in public for example.
To come up with a funnier joke in such situation is completely irrelevant, as it both misses the correct way to deal with bigotry and is even tactically wrong since internalized bigotry is what actually makes bigoted jokes funny (see for example :http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-07/uog-sjf070209.php )
Then I should defend my right to tell a joke no matter how offensive it is to your delicate sensibilities.
This is an example of where and how so-called "Feminism" becomes absurd.
You are arguing for social-engineering for the benefit of women at the expense of men.
That is intrinsically sexist and the right in the cross-hairs is Free Speech.
I am *allowed* to be a bigot and am allowed to voice it.
Yeah, asking you to act like a decent human being is harmful to men. Do fuck off.
People call people nigger everywhere. Do you not get on the internet? Changing peoples behavior is useless, except for violent acts. Changing peoples minds and hearts is what's important. The civil rights movement changed peoples actions (and some peoples minds) but there are plenty of people that it didn't change their minds. Supressing the issue only means it will bubble out later.
Not at all. By calling people on their shit, you don't suppress the issue. You make them face it head on.
Main group of people I’ve seen using the N word irl is black people and hispanics V:, and on the internet, people who think 4chan is some golden city of the internet. Which unfortunately I think is one of the main sites that led to the rather god awful douchey internet personality and belief that you can get away with being a jackass and everyone will pat you on the ass for it..
[For example, Youtube Trolls with their battle cry of Umads]
Then not only will I "bite you" but I will call others to publicly "bite you" and otherwise shame you in public until you change a behaviour that we consider appaling. This is the way it goes I'm afraid. If you don't care about the lives of LGBT people you harm by reinforcing their systematic oppression and if you don't care about the actual hurt you cause to any LGBT people who are triggered and shamed by your jokes, then everyone else won't care about hurting you in similar ways in turn.
It's just not cool to cause harm to so many people, just because you want to continue using a particular joke and I honestly don't understand why someone would stick to their guns to defend their right to cause emotional harm (and that's at the very very least)
and I welcome you to shame me publically for laughing at something funny, good luck with that.
The thing is that people are too goddamned oversensitive. and if we cater our every move to make every minority happy well your being able to see offends the blind, so I demand you poke your eyes out. Your ability to hear offends the deaf, so rupture your eardrums.
Yes that is an insane way to think, but GLBT but hell if some group of pedophiles started getting up at arms about their portrayal in the media, would you say that they shouldn't be portrayed that way? It's just a different kind of alternative lifestyle. As long as they are not viewing child pornography or actually having sex with children in countrys its illegal in, they deserve the same rights as everyone else.
And don't you think that things that women post that attack men are harmful?
What about the harm the op does by causing stereotypes that rapists think all men are rapists!
I am me, and that's that. Most people who try to change other people fail miserably. And I personally have no place in my life for shame. Talk about a wasted emotion.
The second paragraph is broken:
Yes that is an insane way to think, but GLBT expect that. Bbut hell if some group of pedophiles started getting up at arms about their portrayal in the media, would you say that they shouldn't be portrayed that way? It's just a different kind of alternative lifestyle. As long as they are not viewing child pornography or actually having sex with children in countrys its illegal in, they deserve the same rights as everyone else.
No. They do not. I mean, WTF are you smoking here man? You seriously thinkg that LGBT want to make everyone gay or something?
Depends on how they are being portrayed I guess. Pedophilia is a complex subject as there is evidence that sexual kinks are hard locked into our brains from an early age. It may be the case that Pedophiles cannot help what they find attractive, in which case their situation becomes dramatic. I would say that as long as they are not funding and supporting child sexual abuse, they should not be portrayed in any way that serves to systematically marginalize them. Similar to how I would think about serious mental instabilities.
If shame doesn't work on you, then something else will be attempted. It doesn't matter what. Something will be found that hurts you as much as you hurt others. And it will not be because you laugh at something funny, anymore than people reacting to racist jokes is reacting to people "laughing about something funny".
These are absurd suppositions. Making yourself blind or deaf does not make blind and deaf people happy. You know what makes those people happy? Being afforded as much of the enjoyment in life as those who are not blind and deaf. Seriously, you are arguing with very very absurd strawmen here.
It's not a matter of being "overly sensitive" It's a matter of walking a mile in someone's shoes and showing enough empathy so as not to kick people when they're down!
Perhaps if Feminist hadn't created Rape-Culture then more men would be sympathetic.
Where we are at with the gender war today, is if you see a woman being raped you ignore it and keep walking.
It's not your problem and you are not required to risk your life and limb for hers.
She is responsible for providing her personal defense, not me.
Fuck off from my blog, scumfuck.
What does this question have to do with anything? It seems to me that you are under the impression that feminists are de-facto hypocrites.
Rapists should be harmed and marginalized until the point where no one is a rapist anymore. Anything that helps the world have less rapists is good. But the same is not true about groups like women or transexuals!
ALL PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRITES.
Fact of life. Even you yourself. Even me. But some groups seek more hypocrisy than others.
Take "African Americans." I grew up in a "Black" neighborhood and I am white as can be. I also grew up at a time when rappers like Ice Cube and the like were starting to use the word "Nigga" in their songs. I listened to this type of music as it helped me fit in with my primarily "Black" schoolmates. One day, without even thinking, I was rapping one of the raps with some friends. I said "Nigga" just like the words of the "song". I was promptly beaten black and blue for it. I was told: "It's okay for us to say it, but not for you." I decided right then and there that was bullshit. And to this day I have no qualms about saying "Nigga" as long as it is not as a racial slur. If you can say it, I can say it. If I can't say it no one can.
I don't buy double standards.
And people who whine about the damage words can do are usually doing damage to the people they are whining about.
Also, don't you think there are a percentage of "Sex Offenders" viewed as "rapists" by the general population, who have served their sentance, taken steps to change their behaviors and thinking, but (in America) are forced to be on lists identifying them as rapists who this article MIGHT hurt? It builds a further harmful view of these men (AND WOMEN) that will make it harder for the ones who have made penance to find jobs, housing, or even friends?
These words may be harming people who don't deserve it as much as laughing at a rape joke.
It is faulty. Stereotyping, laughing at a "questionable" joke, making a sexist remark, saying "Nigga", could all be harmful to someone. Yet we all do it and are guilty of it.
Step out of your glass house BEFORE you throw a stone.
I don't buy this. Your one example does not prove it.
I have many examples but I'm not going to waste my time or yours going over it.
Don't you watch House?
Everybody Lies.
Everybody is a Hypocrite.
The actual truth is too awful to deal with so everyone lies.
The op is asking us to lie. She wants us to pretend funny jokes aren't funny because the awful truth is a skilled comedian can make something as disgusting as rape, funny to many people.
I am not very familiar with the US Civil rights and black liberation movements but from what little I know, you caricature the reasoning behind this request. I'm sure you can find a lot of articles online explaining why using the word "Nigger" and derivatives as a white person to refer to PoC is reinforcing their systematic oppression that you don't need me to do it for you.
I am not referring to the word "Nigger" I am referring to the word "Nigga." HUGE difference.
I do not understand this difference. For me it looks like a slang way of saying the same thing. But as I said, I am not familiar with the matter, nor am I a Black person, so I am very unsuited to discuss this issue.
The people who request that we not use certain words or forms to refer to specific groups of people ARE those hurt by them. It is not white people who first thought not to use "Nigger" and it is not males who first throught that it would be a good idea not to refer to women as "Sweet tits".
You are claiming then that those who are hurt by those words, don't know what they are doing and are causing more harm to themselves. And you claim this as someone who is not even affected by those words. Someone who has no personal experience or stake in the matter. In short, as a privileged person for whom avoiding certain words in order to not cause harm to large groups of people is just too much to ask. Therefore you rationalize it until white is black and you not using those words would be causing the harm. What you are saying is seriously degrading the actual, personal experience of marginalized people.
Yoiu really don't know anything about me. I am not a "Privileged person" in any sense of the term.
I have done more and lived more in my life then most people have. I have been homeless, incarcerated and abused. Nothing was ever given to me, even as a child, I had to fight for anything I wanted.
I came from nothing and made a life I am mostly happy with. How many people can say the same? And I did it without ever bending over backwards for other peoples feelings.
If I say or do something that offends you… here's a tip: Get over it. Life's to short to let it bother you.
Yes you are, but you don't understand what privilege means. We all are privileged in different ways, including women, PoC and disabled people, and by itself it's nothing to be ashamed of as it can't be helped. Perhaps this will help you understand.
What you shouldn't do is leave your privileges unchecked so that you can ignore or outright harm those who don't have them.
This is not about being offended. Especially not myself personally, who enjoy probably as many privileges as you. It's about not reinforcing the systematic marginalization of specific groups of people.
When I argue against female objectification in gaming for example, I am not doing it because 'I'm offended". I'm doing it because it reinforces sexism and drives women away from gaming.
The sex offenders list and the way it is applied and enforced is a farce and I do not endorse it in any way. It is just another heavy handed half-though knee-jerk for political points that causes a lot of harm while trying to do a little good.
The sex offenders list is far from the only way to deal with actual sexual offenders.
What you just said seems to reinforce the idea that those who do an act, think that everyone else does it too.
You are projecting. I do not stereotype, make sexist remarks and so on consciously. And when I do and realize that I did, I aim to not do it again. I do not declare it my FSM-given right to continue to do so because "everyone does it anyway"
I took this up with you privately. I will not be discussing it further here, if you want to, you have my email and several other ways to contact me. But I stand on my statement I have seen you be completely iinsensitive to the feeling of others and say things that might have been hurtful.
Again, this is not stricly about not being hurtful. It's about not being hurtful to marginalized classes of people by reinforcing their oppression. I don't care about hurting rapists' feeling for example and I am not worried about hurting your feelings in this discussion either, because I would not be marginalizing you.
And if you talk about who I think you are talking about, then I will dispute that I was "completely insensitive" but I will see what you wrote in private and take it up with you there as you wish.
As I said to you in our private version of this debate, I have realized I have much better ways to utilize my time.
So in closing… I do not approve of Rape or Rapists.
But I also don't care about anyone. 😀
GO TEAM MORAL INDIFFERENCE!
Okay WOAH! I am black and I do NOT approve of the word "Nigga" because it's a spin off of the word "Nigger" which is what slave owners used to call slaves. So all African Americans aren't like that. So this argument is not valid because unlike this post, there is no backup to your claim.
If I may add. I’ve rather grown up in a highly black and hispanic populated school myself. and One thing I’ve seen is that the version that is ‘Ok’ is nigga, the ‘er’ version is the bad one. They toss around nigga left and right without a second thought from how it sounds on the outside, Even at me sometimes. There was also a few wigga’s here and there as well.
[The whole ghettofabulous/Gangsta thing was quite popular among my fellow peers. Baggy oversized clothes and all.]
So let's live in a society where none of us bears any responsibility for anyone or anything else? Seriously? That's a wonderful system of ethics you've got there.
You are responsible for you.
That's the fundamental of ethics (and society).
With out that one, nothing else matters.
(If you aren't responsible for you then you aren't responsible for what you do – and ethics implodes.)
What if your Rapist wore a particular cologne and what if I happened to wear it, or what if your trigger was a particular shirt because that's what he was wearing. Now I'm not allowed to wear that cologne or not allowed to wear my shirt because you have a mental illness? Your mental illness is now my problem to solve not your problem to solve. That's not ethical.
Yes, it's a mental illness caused by severe trauma, but mental illness none-the-less and your illness that you are pushing the responsibility for caring for onto other people. That's why this anti-Free-Speech "Feminist" line-of-thought isn't ethical.
The subject of the joke isn't relevant. As soon as rape-jokes aren't acceptable then it's on to the next black-ball topic.
Jokes tend to be social commentary so if the so-called rape-joke is funny, it's probably because it's about regret-turned-rape not bonafide rape which is an unethical Feminist "hot-spot" that has destroyed the lives of many young men due to the poor decisions of a young woman given the power to rewrite the facts of what happen.
Feminist deserve to be ridiculed for regret-turned-rape. It's absurd. That's *why* it can be turned into a joke.
The real joke is about the harm Feminism is doing to men. You wouldn't think that would be funny, to men at that!, but there they are laughing at their own enslavement.
Great post, I'm a bit wary of some who have issues with this.
No I am not. I specifically speak about rapists. Not people on the sex offender registry.
Excellent comment/post. I am a veteran feminist and even I hadn't thought about this issue from this angle.
Wonderfully written. Well done.
You've been tagged! http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/…
I always find it funny when people get all defensive and sad…
"WHAT?? I can't make rape jokes? I can't call someone a faggot or a retard? Aww MAN – life is just no FUN anymore…"
Jeeze. If you can't have fun without that, you're pretty pathetic.
Indeed 🙂
So call me a selfish loser. Call me a piece of shit and tell me that I am harming the human race and perpetuating rape (though I can't remember the last time I made a rape joke) for sticking up for free speech. I worry myself by not making these jokes among those who may or may not have been raped (hence why I don't make them), same as I don't make racist jokes around those of different races or religious ones around those who would be offended. I worry myself with making direct harm and hurt feelings with those around me. Now I must also worry about furthering such horribly offensive behaviors by not mentioning them in any way that follows with laughter or even the remote bit of happiness?
I'm sorry, but I simply refuse. Sure, it might be right. Sure, it could harm someone in some really indirect way in the future. But that is no fault of mine and I will not accept the blame for something like this. I choose to enjoy my life, and not fill it with worry over every word I say. As George Carlin said: "Don't think rape is funny? Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd." You cannot worry yourself with furthering someone's stupid mind with stupidness simply by making jokes, or we wouldn't ever make jokes at all. I understand rape is a harsh topic for many, but that is not reasonable for this social battle.
Simply, I will not let everyone's little issue effect how I enjoy my life.
So basically your self-enjoyment is more important than combating a horrid violation. Good to know that you're a shitty person then.
Wow. My action might harm someone in the future but I refuse to take responsibility for it? You sound like a shining gem of a human being.
Yes, what Caitlin said.
Wow. That was one of the most disgusting little outbursts of blind privilege I've seen in a while.
So you can only enjoy your life if you're not giving any thought whatsoever to how your actions affect others? I'm sorry for you.
I'll let you in on a little secret: There's no need to 'worry' about whether you're going to hurt someone or trigger someone's PTSD or perpetuate rape culture by telling a rape joke if you simply *refrain from telling rape jokes* in the first place. There. Problem solved.
Also, rape jokes are not funny. If you can't think of a way to get laughs that doesn't involve making light of real, horrible traumas, then I'm sorry to say it, but you have no talent for comedy whatsoever.
So call me a selfish loser. Call me a piece of shit and tell me that I am harming the human race and perpetuating rape (though I can't remember the last time I made a rape joke) for sticking up for free speech. I worry myself by not making these jokes among those who may or may not have been raped (hence why I don't make them), same as I don't make racist jokes around those of different races or religious ones around those who would be offended. I worry myself with making direct harm and hurt feelings with those around me. Now I must also worry about furthering such horribly offensive behaviors by not mentioning them in any way that follows with laughter or even the remote bit of happiness?
I'm sorry, but I simply refuse. Sure, it might be right. Sure, it could harm someone in some really indirect way in the future. But that is no fault of mine and I will not accept the blame for something like this. I choose to enjoy my life, and not fill it with worry over every word I say. As George Carlin said: "Don't think rape is funny? Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd." You cannot worry yourself with furthering someone's stupid mind with stupidness simply by making jokes, or we wouldn't ever make jokes at all. I understand rape is a harsh topic for many, but that is not reasonable for this social battle.
Simply, I will not let everyone's little issue effect how I enjoy my life.
And you just called me a shitty person. Thank you for making my point. I was honest and truthful and you had nothing, but to try and tear me down and make personal remarks. You are no better than anyone else. There are many other issues people deal with other than rape; don’t see you battling those. In fact, it looks like you are furthering other issues with this. No interest in understanding or accepting those of other viewpoints. Try and shine this light on yourself.
Your "viewpoint" promotes violence against women and you want to be given credit for being honest about it? OK, thank you for admitting you prefer to promote rape over peace and equal rights. Thank you for admitting you want the right to be an asshole to be more important than the right to live in a society that condemns all violence, not just the kinds you think aren't funny. Thank you for redirecting and playing the victim when you are encouraging victimization under the guise of free speech. Thank you for mis-defining free speech as "the right to speak without being challenged." And thank you for admitting you're too stubborn to realize when you're supporting the normalization of violence. How's that light feel on your face, buddy?
Oh, you’ve got the right to say whatever the frack you want; that’s true. BUT, and this is the really IMPORTANT part, you DON’T have the right to say what you want WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE. You promote rape over peace & equal rights? Fine, but we’ll call you what we see you as, and that’s an insensitive piece of trash with absolutely no consideration for how your remarks affect other people. Having the right to free speech does NOT automatically protect you from people calling you on your shit. Just because you can say it, doesn’t mean we aren’t allowed to be offended by it.
I have heard ABOUT rape jokes… but to be perfectly honest, I have never heard an actual rape joke. At least, not to my knowledge…
You've never heard anyone joking about "dropping the soap" in prison? Prison rape jokes are rape jokes.
Was chatting up some girl the other day. There was a bit of flirting then she said, 'God you've got strong arms, i bet you could make a girl do anything'. I laughed…. Then I raped the bitch.
Now I don't think it's that funny, but context is everything. A few young men having a harmless satirical joke, almost mocking themselves, isn't a problem. A private joke isn't a big deal. I appreciate that i've probably lost all credibility by posting that joke, but that's the sort of thing you're dealing with. I'm not going to make my friend think it's OK to rape by joking about it. It's a joke
If your friend was a rapist, then yes, you would enable him. That's what this whole post was about.
Um, if your friends were rapist, then yes you would reinforce their beliefs. No matter how much you don't think you wouldn't, you would. Did you not read the post?
I am opposed to rape as an act.
I have never thought about raping anybody and I never would.
However, I am, and always will be, on the side of comedy.
I don’t believe that jokes about certain things, even horrible things, open your mind to that idea. They just don’t.
Either everything is funny, or nothing is.
It's not about opening your mind to the idea. It's about reinforcing the thoughts of those who are already open to the idea.
I don't think you read the entire post. Or maybe you just didn't understand the point. It's in the section about you being one of the rapist's comrades. On their side. When you laugh, along with the rest of the group, you condone and acknowledge the acceptance of rape.
It's not about you. It's not about the person telling the joke. It's not about the other decent people laughing too. It's what message it sends to the rapist in the room. That's what the point of the post is.
(As it happens, I don't laugh for the reasons mentioned elsewhere in the article, but that's beside the point.)
I bet there is an inverse correlation between ‘public mentions of rape in jokes’ and ‘general acceptability/occurrence of rape’ in societies across the world and history.
good jokes work in the opposite way to that stated; they certainly don't act to normalise- they swim exclusively in the inhumanity within unempathisable criminals….there are bad jokes about rape that come from bad places, but there lies not an issue about the subject area- we need be more concerned about the cunt that is telling it- they'd still be a cunt who think rape was alright if they were making fart noises under their armpits to entertain those around them. At least with their cards on the table we can know to avoid them.
nearly all rape jokes are rubbish- but that's because nearly all of all jokes are rubbish…
Any point you could have possibly made was nullified when you unironically used the word "cunt" as an insult. Bravo.
i disagree with the validity of your suggested process of point nullification.
what if i told you it was ironic?
whenever i am sexist i am ironic, also when i am racist and when i set tramps on fire? all fine with us enlightened feminists now?
i have a linguistic disagreement with you summation of 'cunt' … i use the term all the time around me bitches and hos and no one has ever picked me up on it.
i think the main lexical horridity here is the use of 'bravo'……it's like the word has its own beret
In response to this blog, only one sentence — the worst dictatorships always have the cleanest media.
I just bluntly and outwardly refuse to let anybody else control which jokes I laugh at and which not. Irrespective of whatever reason there is and how good these reasons are. Dictatorships also always come with a reason.
If I find a joke is funny, I will laugh. Even if it is a rape joke.
Thank you
Yeah, it's a dictatorship alright, when you're asked not to be a monumental ass.
The lengths you people will go to justify not giving a fuck about others borders on absurd.
* /me shakes his head at the comparison to dictatorships*
In response to this blog, only one sentence — the worst dictatorships always have the cleanest media.
I just bluntly and outwardly refuse to let anybody else control which jokes I laugh at and which not. Irrespective of whatever reason there is and how good these reasons are. Dictatorships also always come with a reason.
If I find a joke is funny, I will laugh. Even if it is a rape joke.
Thank you
I find it bizarre how antifeminists frequently make the same essentially anti-male arguments that they wrongly accuse feminists of making. When they're not caught in contradictions by simultaneously arguing that false rape accusations are common & that all heterosexual males are roving rapists, antifeminists types often sound exactly like the moldy old Mary Daly-esque screeds they decry – arguing that sexual violence is 'genetically hardwired' into dude's dicks, and so on.
Thanks for republishing that brilliant comment. I've done the same, translated it and linked it to 'Der Freitag' http://www.freitag.de/community/blogs/dame-von-we…
I don't have an issue with rape jokes, I don't think anyone has the right to tell people what they can and can't find funny. Rapists are rapists, whether they hear a joke or not it isn't going to change that opinion. Rape jokes don't create rapists any more than war jokes create war. If rapists already think all men are rapists, whether or not people tell rape jokes isn't going to affect them as they are clearly delusional. Even if a male disagrees with a rapist they are likely to assume it's political correctness anyway. As a victim of sexual assault I can say that I still find rape jokes funny. Jokes aren't so black and white, there is such a thing as satire. No one else should be punished just because some people are mentally ill. No one should be strong armed and forced to submit to the joke police. Different people are amused by different things, it doesn't make you a bad person to have a black sense of humour. Humour is a coping mechanism.
No. Anybody can be a rapist. Rapists aren't a separate species. Their actions are encouraged by our culture's complete disregard for women and consent. Most rapists aren't psychopaths who stalk women they don't know down a dark alleyway. They are friends, partners, and family members of the victims. They can be "good" people who just make one mistake. If you do not get explicit consent from a person and have sex with them, and they didn't want to, that is rape. Our culture condones that behaviour and even admires it. And trivialising that behaviour convinces people that it's actually okay.
Except men rape men and women rape men so that cannot possibly be correct.
"They are friends, partners, and family members of the victims."
Oh please. This is Feminist propaganda. They literally rewrote what rape meant until they reached their target numbers to receive the funding they wanted. You won't get national funding for rape-crisis-centers across campuses with only 0.0001% incident of rape.
First-hand testimony by the women "raped' was discarded when compiling statistics. If Feminism was about equal rights for women then why were women's opinions about the issue thrown away?
(The facts of the matter are on-campus is the /least likely/ place for a woman to be raped.)
It's based on Koss's research which was junk.
One of it's findings was that 42% of woman "raped' would have consensual sex with their rapist in the future!
Well… I guess rape *isn't* all that bad. /shrug
I'm pretty sure 42% is higher than a cold-call.
If I want to have lots of sex, I best get raping so I have large group of women that just can't wait to hear from me!
(I live near Detroit and the incident of rape in Detroit, one of the most violent places on Earth, is 2.4%. That is your upper bound on rape.)
"If you do not get explicit consent from a person and have sex with them, and they didn't want to, that is rape. "
No it's not. That is the re-engineered Feminist regret-turned-rape propaganda.
Whether or not you want to, isn't relevant!
You either implicitly consent or your don't.
Your skewed state-of-mind is your problem and thinking your state-of-mind matters, as opposed to *what you do*, is how regret becomes rape /after the fact/.
"I wasn't sure how I felt about it, so I guess it was rape…"
The subject has the obligation to resist to their ability or it isn't rape and the perpetrator must use violence to overwhelm the subject or it isn't rape. Any lower standard is an insult to everyone that has actually experienced raped.
Troll FAIL.
Yeah, apologies about the trolls. This one just came here and vomited it shitty opinions all over the place.
lol
As a survivor of sexual assault I can say that I find rape jokes to be disgusting. Still gonna play the authority card?
I have seen this and explanations like it a few times now and have yet to be given a source for any of the information. I think there are a couple of surveys which can be found just by googling about men admitting to rape when an act is described as opposed to the word 'rape', however the fact that 'virtually all rapists believe all men rape' – i have never seen this in an actual source only repeatedly regurgitated in comments/blogs etc. Anyone got a link?
Note I absolutely believe in the sentiment of the article I just want to be able to argue this point properly so need to see valid, reliable references not just hearsay.
Perhaps you could ask Time Machine, who is the Original commenter? (Link at the post)
Have done just thought I would ask in more than one domain. Thanks!
Well, if you find out, let me know as I'd like to souce that part as well.
This was excellent and very important. Thanks for putting this up!
All the ones on this campus do. I’ve actually been hissed at and called a ‘gender traitor’ for wanting a boyfriend. One girl wanted to ‘help’ me by sitting me down for a chat about all the ways a man would violate me and how every single male on the face of the planet, my male teachers, my father, my stepfather, my uncles and cousins and younger brothers, were all inherently rapists and worthless scum who deserved no less than to die in a housefire. (Because they had penises, you see, and everyone knows that automaticly makes you a rapist.)
In short, yes, rape jokes suck, but you’re sadly deluded if you really think the majority of feminists don’t fear men.
Um…what…The majority of WOMEN fear men, Emma. Not all men, but if you're walking down the street at night and see some men, you're probably going to cross the street to avoid them. Tell me that you'd feel equally about women.
As for your bizarre friends who call you a "gender traitor" for wanting a boyfriend…I suggest you read some books on feminism, and check out some feminist blogs, instead of ascribing the term "feminist" to a bunch of crazy separatists, just to build a ridiculous strawman.
Yes. Because denying someone’s experience with people who use feminism and feminist ideals incorrectly totally ISN’T the same as denying that the incident happened (which is, as you should know, a form of victim-blaming). It’s NOT a strawman, either, because I can verify the same behavior from feminists I’ve met too, both online and off. I like to call these people “badfems”, a play off “radfem”, because they are giving the feminist movement a terrible name. Like we need more people thinking we’re all oversensitive, man-hating, bra-burning witches. And you’re right. They shouldn’t be called feminists, because they’re not feminists. They’re just misandrist, sexist assholes. Yes, I said “misandrist”, and yes it’s a thing that exists. Don’t believe me?
Ask why my mom had to tell the doctors she didn’t want my little
brother’s foreskin cut off and my sister and I never had to have that issue even come up. Ask why my little brother gets more flack
for wearing a skirt than I get for wearing jeans. Ask why my little
brother isn’t taken seriously when he complains about female bullies,
and I am when I do. MISANDRY EXISTS, IT IS AN ISSUE, AND MOREOVER, IT’S A *FEMINIST* ISSUE.
Oh, and by the way? I’m female, and I DON’T fear men. And no, if I were walking down the street at night, I *wouldn’t* cross the street to avoid them, I’d look them right in the eye and say “Good evening” and continue on my way home. Anyone who *would* cross the street to avoid a group of men while walking alone at night either lives in the bad part of town, or is misandristic and assumes that those men are going to sexually abuse them, just because they’re men and they have penises. Because obviously, penis = rapist, right?
tl;dr? Please stop speaking for all women, all feminists, and all sexual assault surviviors. Because you don’t speak for me, you don’t speak for the person who posted on this blog, and you don’t speak for everyone else here.
I’ll right away seize your rss feed as I can not find your email subscription hyperlink or newsletter service. Do you have any? Kindly permit me understand so that I could subscribe. Thanks.
No, fuck YOU.
“You’re perpetuating rape culture! Cisgender white privilege patriarchy!”
PC drone.
Grow up, America. Get over words, then maybe we can start making progress.
Invent telepathy and then you might have a point. This process you’re speaking about, ‘getting over words,’ I don’t think you know what it means.
P.S. “victim blaming! and other words I learned in sociology 101!”
*is fat, has blue hair and a septum piercing, uniquueeeee*
Well put, thanks!
Men don’t care, not one bit. Men will always back up other men, their words are more important than our bodies and well being. It is becoming more and more obvious everyday men would rather abuse us and demean us than be equal to us, yet at the same time they ask us to love them.
Every man I see I assume and I always will that he is a predator. How can I not when no matter what I do or don’t do it’s always my fault and their “jokes” are more important than our history. I wouldn’t trust a man any more than I would trust a viper, it’s their nature “they can’t help it” “they are visual” “it’s biology.”
So I just make sure I always have a weapon and I never let my guard down around the filthy beasts.
I’m a hetero guy, and I’m genuinely fucking insulted. Some of us actually don’t treat women like shit and understand what “no” is. But fine, if you want to be the exact same kind of gender-chauvinistic scumbag you’re railing against, that’s your problem. I’ll just hope I never meet you in real life out of fear that I accidentally blink funny and get stabbed as a result.
Wow. Just replace “men/man” with a race of your choice, and this is literally hate speech.
And you call yourself a feminist? Sorry, but I as a feminist want no part of your idea of what feminism is.
Remember women fight strength to weakness, they may be stronger but you can defeated them. If you are in danger go for eyes, knee caps, testicles, throat. We will never match their strength but if you take their eyes how can the chase you? If you smash their wind pipe how can they contain you? Men love dog eat dog so give it to them. You are allowed to defend yourself and if some beasts dies or gets maimed in the process what loss is it?
To Kimiko:
http://www.bertstare.com/bertstare.jpg
I like how nearly NO ONE on here is condeming this person, presumably female, for saying such atrocious remarks about men, but the SECOND someone says “maybe we shouldnt stifle others’ free speech, no matter how offensive” you people jump on them. Talk about fucked up priorities. But then again, what can anyone expect of feminists?
As soon as you said, “what can anyone expect of feminists?” you lost the high ground on this argument.
Alright. I’ll remember to go for the testicles next time a *female robber* decides to break into my house.
Just want something clarified, if I say raped while playing a video game because I pwned my friend at that video game, is this inappropriate?
Yes
“Yes”
And this is why you people are seriously fucking stupid. You DO NOT allow for the many nuances that life comes with. Making jokes about a subject, does not mean we make it “ok” to do it. People make jokes about robbing, about murdering, about stabbing, about shooting, about destroying, about stealing, about a MULTITUDE of things that we ALL consider illegal and immoral. According to you morons, we trivialize and condone all those criminals too right? No one is saying rape is ok by making a joke about it. No one is telling the shroedinger’s rapist its ok to rape. To say otherwise, and to think that otherwise “normal” or “good” people as you have claimed, think this is retarded beyond belief. If i say i got “raped” in a video game, it usually means that i got really badly beaten by the other guy. In this context, and indeed in any other context, the word rape is used to highlight gross one sidedness or destruction. To say it normalizes rape is SO mind-numbingly stupid that even Radio’s child could spot it.
I believe the information about what rapists believe comes from a combination of several studies done of convicted rapists combined with the same studies that produced the 6% number. But I don’t have time to track any of it down right now – Lisak’s studies and Thomas MacAulay Millar’s various posts on the topic would be a good place to start if anyone else has the time.
I’d also like to point out that part of the problem with rape jokes isn’t just a matter of making rapists think you are on their side – it’s also a matter of making it unclear to victims and potential victims whose side you are on.
A social group in which rape jokes* are shared and laughed at is one where I feel less safe. Not just because it makes me wonder how closely that aligns with their general views on rape in particular – and therefore what they might do, but more often because it makes me wonder what they might not do. Such people don’t strike me as the kind of people who are likely to help me if I need it. I’m sure they will talk a good talk about giving the mythical rapist in the alleyway a good beatdown, but what about all the other smaller and much more likely bits of sexualized violence?
How will they react if someone gropes me? Verbally threatens me? Uses his larger size to corner me and make it difficult for me to end the conversation without having to touch him? Refuses to leave me alone even after I tell him he is bothering me?
And if something does happen? If someone in the group starts to get that feeling that another someone is potentially dangerous? Or even if they just find another person to be bothersome and invasive and not listening to requests to knock that shit off? If they have tried to handle it on their own and it isn’t working? How likely are they to turn to the group for help? And if they do, how often will it turn into something more like this: http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/
(and people are seriously questioning the fact that the study described rape but didn’t call it rape? semantics and social sciences – how do they work?!?!?)
*by which I mean jokes in which victims are the butt of the joke – not the awesome rape jokes which point out the absurdity of victim blaming or the like. see: Wanda Sykes detachable vagina riff.
I’m glad that feminists don’t think all men are rapists – I hope you’re right because otherwise why should I trust feminists? On the flip side, it’s not as if (what we could reasonably call) contemporary feminists as ‘whiter-than-white’ what with their own jokes about castration (which is mutilation or torture or both), and a similar joke from Sharon Osbourne. One response I saw was ‘men shouldn’t be so oversensitive’. That is a morally unacceptable approach to take. OK, point made.
This post is a perfect example of mental gymnastics that only a crazy feminist is capable of. Your definition of rape is such that you include an unusually large group of men (6%) that would otherwise not be considered rapists in any court of law. Then, with this group of "rapists", you proceed to make quantum leap assumptions that only rapists make rape jokes. Just like only baby killers make dead baby jokes? Just like only racists make racial jokes?
Such flawed logic is inexcusable in any legitimate debate so it makes sense that this is only contained in a personal blog, since you would be lambasted by anyone in a legitimate forum. The fact of the matter is, people who make jokes are only joking 99% of the time. A joke can be funny or unfunny; "offensive" is not a valid answer. Stop being such a self righteous pretender, you're only a child.
Sigh…one more feminist, spreading hate speech to defend misandry. Nothing to see here that’s new…
How do you know there’s nothing to see if you clearly didn’t even look?
Because this is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down-
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Pun intended?
Feminists don’t think all men are rapists; just all men who have sex with women.
Fix the link in your article please. I want evidence on the 6% thing…
i hope science can make a way to prevent men reach that point. Rapists can be cured. We cannot afford to see more rape victims in the world. women are precious parts of the society. we need to give importance to them.
But did you hear that one about therapist?
interesante
muchas gracias amigo
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